Sabres- weight vs. balance point

[Alcibiades]

Which of the following sabre blades would you assume would be less tiring to fence with, assuming identical grips, guards, and pommels?

1. A 159g blade with a balance point 25 cm from the shoulder
2. A 165g blade with a balance point 23 cm from the shoulder

[vivoescrimare]

I think you would need a complex machine to differentiate between a variance that slight. I also think it would be HEAVILY dependant on what you're doing/how you fence.

(People doing heavily parry riposte games are going to find it less tiring to use a blade more weighted to the back end, people doing more counterattacks, sky hooks, etc, etc will find the opposite holds true.)

[Superscribe]

Resultant downforce from 1) is .040N. Resultant downforce from 2) is .038N

Grossly, grossly generalization everything, I can think of some instances where 1) would be slightly less tiring on your shoulder.

[Alcibiades]

Resultant downforce from 1) is .040N. Resultant downforce from 2) is .038N

Grossly, grossly generalization everything, I can think of some instances where 1) would be slightly less tiring on your shoulder.

Do you have a special online calculator for that, or just napkin physics?

[Sean Butler]

Which of the following sabre blades would you assume would be less tiring to fence with, assuming identical grips, guards, and pommels?

1. A 159g blade with a balance point 25 cm from the shoulder
2. A 165g blade with a balance point 23 cm from the shoulder

I never thought the use of lighter blades had much to do with any fatigue factor. At the end of the day what the arm does with or without the sabre might be somewhat fatiguing, but the sabre adds very little to that. I choose lighter blades, guards, handles and pommel nuts for the purpose of making blades which move fast in my hand for either attack or defense.

The closer the balance is to the guard, the easier it is to move the tip. I am not sure why that would help all that much for parrying, but it's definitely good for feints. The downside is that the lighter parts aren't all that durable. The lighter blades seem to break more, especially if your opponent is heavy-handed, and the lighter guards are very easily crushed and deformed by guard to guard contact or even just hanging out in your bag.

To me the benefits of heavier blades and guards are:

* The blades are often less flexible and this makes them easier to aim at a smaller target, like for wrist cuts;
* They have a slightly larger inertia and absorb parries slightly better;
* They last longer, though unfortunately not if you use point attacks.

Of course the heavier they are the more important it is for the balance point to be closer to the guard. The lighter weapons need this less and in fact if the balance point is too close (which is rare for light weapons actually) the blade feels so light that its actually not conducive to accurate tip control. Though I am sure someone might get used to it, I didn't like it myself.

[Superscribe]

Do you have a special online calculator for that, or just napkin physics?

I just simplified the weight and calculated the moment from the distance you gave me. It's all that could be done with the limited amount of information given.

[Alcibiades]

I just simplified the weight and calculated the moment from the distance you gave me. It's all that could be done with the limited amount of information given.

No, no, I wasn't saying that what you did was unhelpful! Your answer was better than I actually thought I could reasonably expect. As someone who has been away from math and physics since June, the idea that numbers could be applied in a logical manner to solve a problem is beyond me. Thank you!

[Allen Evans]

The closer the balance is to the guard, the easier it is to move the tip. I am not sure why that would help all that much for parrying, but it's definitely good for feints.

In a parry, the tip should be moving first.

[vivoescrimare]

In a parry, the tip should be moving first.

Yes. Also *Facepalm*

Not to fight the thread drift, as I feel some of this conversation is more enlightening than where this thread could've gone, but are we mostly agreeing that the difference between the two blades in the OP's question is minimal to the point of nonexistance? :P

[Sean Butler]

In a parry, the tip should be moving first.

True, but I have yet to find that tip-speed makes much of a difference for sabre parries. I'd say that control of (and the timing of the change of) distance between you and your opponent plays a much larger role than tip-speed. Most parries I make are the ones I intended to make, I suppose that a faster tip might help me delay closing the line by a few miliseconds and maybe more effectively draw the finish. On the other hand, I find that feints are more ... "interactive".

[Alcibiades]

Yes. Also *Facepalm*

Not to fight the thread drift, as I feel some of this conversation is more enlightening than where this thread could've gone, but are we mostly agreeing that the difference between the two blades in the OP's question is minimal to the point of nonexistance? :P

Absolutely. My question has been answered more than adequately. Thank you. Blade 2) it is.

[vivoescrimare]

True, but I have yet to find that tip-speed makes much of a difference for sabre parries. I'd say that control of (and the timing of the change of) distance between you and your opponent plays a much larger role than tip-speed. Most parries I make are the ones I intended to make, I suppose that a faster tip might help me delay closing the line by a few miliseconds and maybe more effectively draw the finish. On the other hand, I find that feints are more ... "interactive".

Definitely concur that timing and distance (both mostly within the realms of footwork) is far, far more important for ANY defensive sabre actions, particularly good parry/ripostes. Weight distribution of the blade plays a very minor role, at best. I'd be more concerned with finding one that felt good and sticking with it so that whatever you're using is consistent, personally.

Or get better footwork and you can fence with a conductive broomstick without much of a problem. (As long as its an S2000 broomstick:P)

[Inquartata]

Weight distribution of the blade plays a very minor role, at best.

Yes. Everyone knows that weight and balance don't matter.

However, the way one cants one's tang is absolutely critical!

[Alcibiades]

Yes. Everyone knows that weight and balance don't matter.

Oh, they definitely matter for me. I want to conserve every joule of energy possible. It helps to whittle every gram that I can off of my weapon.

[bigdawg2121]

In a parry, the tip should be moving first.

Pause....maybe it's the way I've been trained but I'm not sure how true this is in saber. Arguably (in an ideal world with a perfectly trained student)
the 3,4,5 "triangle" of defense can be formed with little to no tip motion at all....

[Inquartata]

Yeah, I've seen a lot of photos of top sabre fencers in mid-lunge with the fist well in advance of the point...

Even in foil---does the flicking point "move first"?