USFA considering forcing members to use THS

[jimbro]

We're going to give THS a monopoly over all fencers and costs will be lower?

In what fairyland has any monopoly ever used its power to do anything other than raise its fees?

[gladius]

Results? We don't need no stinkin' results!

Yes I understand

However, the international results of Mariel this senior season before going to the senior world championships in October which are the most important event in a non Olympic year, are not only "better" than Vezzali, they are better than any other fencer in any weapon. Period.

To have such a "product" and do absolutely NOTHING with it in terms of PR, advertising, fund raising, you name it, is extremely disappointing.

Ditto for the others I mentioned, Seth, Tim, Gerek, to show that fencing in the US is alive and well, and growing, really something special. Heck, one could approach--directly--some national hotel chains and start flexing some muscle to get special treatment for our fencing community.

It would require of course a jazzed up powerpoint presentation or something with bios, photos, stats, etc., you know, and a catchy name like F&S (we Fence and if you are nice to us, we'll Stay with you) and little by little--as soon as our marketing and PR group is released from THS WAIVER duty--we'll hit you with tons of stuff and info you can use in selling your product to everybody...a win-win situation for all...(just like the Italians and the French and the Germans, etc. etc., do...)

In exchange, and this would really be a double hit, we could introduce THS to the Italians, the French, the Germans, etc., etc., and show them what they're missing and why our very young top fencers, without the cushy sponsorship and state support the Euros are getting, are gaining on them...

Dream on...

[oso97]

And interestingly, neither the Powerpoint slideshow nor Mr. Aichele's interview/blog mention that your registration for a NAC will be canceled if you are found not to have booked through THS or gotten a waiver. Why not? That's one of the big objections to S & P, but it's left to be assumed instead of being explicitly stated...

At the BOD meeting, I asked the following specific question: "Is the plan for the 'hard rollout' to require competitors to stay in THS hotels or their registration will be denied for the tournament?"

And a one word answer was received: "Yes."

[edew]

Where's Massik? Can we get him back?

[flechewounds]

At the BOD meeting, I asked the following specific question: "Is the plan for the 'hard rollout' to require competitors to stay in THS hotels or their registration will be denied for the tournament?"

And a one word answer was received: "Yes."

Where is that permitted in the bylaws? Article IV, Section 2 states that "All individual members in good standing, except Associate Members, shall be entitled to participate in any competition held under the auspices of the USFA, subject to the limitations of these Bylaws and to such regulations and limitations as the Board of Directors may from time to time lay down with respect to particular categories or classes of members or competitions."

Where is the board resolution defining "THS Hotel Resident" as a class or category of member or competition? Where is the bylaw amendment allowing this further restriction? Where is this specified in the Operations Manual? The Athlete's Handbook?

Who granted Kurt the authority to impose this program? Was there a board resolution expressly allowing him to alter the class or category of membership or competition? Was there a general resolution that abdicated a specific board responsibility and handed it over to him?

Anybody have any answers?

[Inquartata]

Can you be excluded by failing to make check-in?

Can you be excluded by black card for violation of rules?

Neither involves a change in your "category or class".

I don't this is a productive avenue of attack. But if you want to continue---has S&P been voted in by the Board, or just implemented by "staff" or the EC?

[michaelheggen]

There is a significant difference between being excluded after the competition has begun (e.g. for failing to check in or receiving a black card) and being declared ineligible because of one's lodging status.

Maybe we need another addition to the non-discrimination statement:

"The USFA does not discriminate on the basis of race, creed, ...or lodging status."

Grr.

-Mike

[flechewounds]

Can you be excluded by failing to make check-in?

Can you be excluded by black card for violation of rules?

Neither involves a change in your "category or class".

I don't this is a productive avenue of attack. But if you want to continue---has S&P been voted in by the Board, or just implemented by "staff" or the EC?

Inq -
Both aspects are "competition-related." I don't show up or I violate the published rules of a competition, I violate the rules of the sport (I suppose we could have the FOC amend the rules to create a "THS Black Card").

My information has it that S&P was presented to the board and that the ED is pursuing it under his assumed authority. I don't believe that he has sufficient authority. Instead, I think that the board would have to explicitly modify the rules of entry - something that they haven't done.

Interestingly, Volleyball's bylaws are more flexible - requiring member organizations (they are regionalized) to require their members to follow guidelines, rules and other stuff posted from time to time (see USAV Bylaws, Sec. 4.01.A.9). USV's bylaws do not offer the same "right to compete" language to their members, however.

Frankly, our right to compete is one of our membership's fundamental rights - it is clearly specified in our bylaws. Changing that should and probably does require an "act of god."

[ysbadadden]

The Bylaw makes it pretty clear that the Board has to approve the Stay and Play system, but there's no reason that the ED can't explore it before it gets presented to the Board.

[flechewounds]

The Bylaw makes it pretty clear that the Board has to approve the Stay and Play system, but there's no reason that the ED can't explore it before it gets presented to the Board.

First, I think that there's a reasonable argument that a bylaw amendment is required (I don't think that the Stay and Play program falls within the area of "class or category of membership or competition").

Second, if that lower standard is required, I agree that the board has to approve it prior to it being put in place. However, we are now in "soft launch" phase - it is in place, financial commitments are being based upon it, budgets are being calculated assuming its numbers.

To my knowledge, the board did not approve the program. Instead, they were presented with the powerpoint 2-3 days prior to the meeting, and were given a presentation at the board meeting. For it to be approved by the board, it probably has to go through the new business/notice/etc., requirements. This program didn't do that.

Finally, if it were being "studied," one would expect the ED to put together a request-for-proposal that would seek to enhance USFA revenue and lower costs at events, submit the RFP it to several travel companies (including THS, but also including others), receive in return the responses, review them along with a board committee, select the vendor and then begin instituting the program. There is no evidence of such a process occurring.

Even the Hang-a-Star/AskFred decision went through more process than this one - and that, arguably, was within the ED's authority (it didn't fundamentally alter the definition of membership or competition, for example).

[ysbadadden]

During the "soft roll-out," if no one is excluded from competition, it may not require Board approval.

[Inquartata]

Inq -
Both aspects are "competition-related."

Yes, but the Bylaw section you cited above contains no exception for "competition-related" exclusions. Unless you want to count "subject to such regulations", which could easily be construed to extend to S&P as well.

I suppose we could have the FOC amend the rules to create a "THS Black Card").

Don't give them any ideas!


I fear that the answer may be "We control the levers of power, so even if it's not strictly legal there's not much you all can do about it".

[passata_sotto]

By the way, I am not sure why THS is needed. Most professional organizations do not have third parties for housing. Why can't USFA call 10 hotels negotiate a price and block rooms up to a certain date? Then people, if they want, book their rooms directly from the hotel websites by inserting a special code? And as a bonus the hotels provide free rooms to the organizers (aka USFA).

This is exactly what needs to be implemented.
I posted someplace that for this past Nationals I booked our club (three two bedroom suites with kitchens) at the Marriott TownSuites. The Bay Club people had negotiated a better rate through Marriott Sales and when the management found out we were there for the same event they offered us the same rate. We went from $129 per night to $99 per night at a total savings of $900 plus tax and we had the rooms and location we wanted. (And I got my Marriott points which I am using to pay for the hotel at the NAC B before I am forced to stay someplace else

[flechewounds]

Yes, but the Bylaw section you cited above contains no exception for "competition-related" exclusions. Unless you want to count "subject to such regulations", which could easily be construed to extend to S&P as well.

You're argument is weaker when it comes to black cards - a black card does not prevent entry - it is an exclusion for a rules violation - rules promulgated by, I believe, the FOC. As for late entries, operational requirements of a competition require a close of entry to facilitate beginning of a competition. This is clearly related to the operation of the competition at hand.

Hey, I've got an idea... what if each fencer was required to go to the front desk each morning and get a stamp - like they do at the armorer's table for equipment. Maybe a tatoo - that way our fencers hands and arms would be covered with stamps saying "THS SN10" or "THS MEM09" or the like. They'd probably have to be tattoos, otherwise people would claim that they washed off. I think it could be a new art form. I'd start calling it the "Mark of the Beast".

[pillow]

At the BOD meeting, I asked the following specific question: "Is the plan for the 'hard rollout' to require competitors to stay in THS hotels or their registration will be denied for the tournament?"

And a one word answer was received: "Yes."

Who was it that said "yes?"

[Redblade]

Can you be excluded by failing to make check-in?

Can you be excluded by black card for violation of rules?

Neither involves a change in your "category or class".

I don't this is a productive avenue of attack....

There is a significant difference between being excluded after the competition has begun (e.g. for failing to check in or receiving a black card) and being declared ineligible because of one's lodging status.

Neither of those examples, Inq, involve the forced, timely purchase of a specific good or service to compete.

[occasionalfencer]

Who was it that said "yes?"

Yes, I want to know this also. Also, I would like to know who heard this "yes" and just let it go, without any response.

[teacup]

If four or more people reserve one room night at the cheapest THS hotel, with all of their names on the reservation, pay the one night's room cost but then they use Priceline and go somewhere else, would they still be denied the right to fence?

[flechewounds]

If four or more people reserve one room night at the cheapest THS hotel. All of their names are on the reservation, then they use Priceline and go somewhere else.

Would they still be denied the right to fence?

I would think so, unless they are able to present the Mark of the Beast.

[passata_sotto]

If four or more people reserve one room night at the cheapest THS hotel, with all of their names on the reservation, pay the one night's room cost but then they use Priceline and go somewhere else, would they still be denied the right to fence?

How funny - I was wondering the same thing. Or can I just stay the one night between his two events (if they are back to back) and stay any other nights at the hotel of my choice?