National Point Standings Question

[1337]

hey everyone,

i was just wondering if anyone knows when they will have updated point standings (including summer nationals'09) up on the usfencing.org site.

thanks

[Coldfire]

My magic 8 ball says in a week or two...

[pillow]

My magic 8 ball says in a week or two...

I think it also depends on who is doing the points at this time. Is it the same person as last season, or is there a new party in charge?

[fdad]

I think it also depends on who is doing the points at this time. Is it the same person as last season, or is there a new party in charge?

The new automagic system [allegedly] goes live in Sept, so don't be surprised if no one is doing them before then.

[pillow]

The new automagic system [allegedly] goes live in Sept, so don't be surprised if no one is doing them before then.

The new system will be interesting, especially without CG. September is likely, since updated points are not needed until the deadlines for the October Cadet internationals and Junior World Cups, as well as seeding for the Oct NAC. I would prefer to see the points earlier however, as I suspect that any new system will get it wrong the first time, and we will need time to double check and correct mistakes.

[flechewounds]

It would be silly for them to rely upon the automated approach until it ran in parallel for at least a couple of cycles (I'd actually suggest running parallel for a season). While updating is a slow pain in the butt, inaccuracy is worse - especially for those near the team.

Also, the complexity created by strength factors, differing rules, etc., means that the chances for error are great.

They could simulate it by going back two or three years and running them through the system - but then they would have had to plan a significant testing budget... is that possible?

[pillow]

It would be silly for them to rely upon the automated approach until it ran in parallel for at least a couple of cycles (I'd actually suggest running parallel for a season). While updating is a slow pain in the butt, inaccuracy is worse - especially for those near the team.

Also, the complexity created by strength factors, differing rules, etc., means that the chances for error are great.

They could simulate it by going back two or three years and running them through the system - but then they would have had to plan a significant testing budget... is that possible?

Good idea. Email it to the relevant parties at the USFA--I'm sure we would all be interested if you got a response.

[teacup]

The new published criteria for cadet team selection, for five of the squads, has moved Div I points from Group II to Group I. For WE Div I points will not count at all.

Unless the athlete's handbook's rolling points calculations are rewritten, and with WE having separate rolling points criteria, the rolling points will be radically different than the team points.

[pillow]

The new published criteria for cadet team selection, for five of the squads, has moved Div I points from Group II to Group I. For WE Div I points will not count at all.

Unless the athlete's handbook's rolling points calculations are rewritten, and with WE separate rolling points, the rolling points will be radically different than the team points.

How about that? You all know what that means, right? It means that Group II points, which used to include Div I NACs, now are only international events. That means that fencers and families must bear the additional expense of going to Europe perhaps even more than they planned, as they can't use Div I NAC points in Gp II anymore. So more, expensive trips abroad would be needed to make up for the fact that Div I events are now in Grp I. The team selection criteria could now be considered unbalanced, and would seem to favor those who can travel abroad even more than was the case in previous years. Agree or not--opinions please?

[teacup]

In my opinion, these are some of the ramifications of the new cadet team selection criteria:

- Cadet fencers will no longer be able to make a cadet team without international travel. (Prior to this change, Cadet Group II were Div I and international so fencers could make cadet teams without traveling internationally. For junior fencers, Group I are domestic and Group II are international so fencers must travel internationally to make junior teams.)
- Almost all cadet designated events do not have a strength factor calculation, so those with financial means will probably choose to go to weak international events to earn points rather than fence domestically at Div I's or even stronger international junior events.
- Cadet designated events may be selected which conflict with Div I domestic events forcing fencers to choose in which event/team to compete.
- In the case of women's epee, it would be possible to make the junior team but not the cadet team
- In the case of women's epee, fencers who wish to try for both junior and cadet teams must travel to many more events though Div I will only count towards Junior team selection.
- as I previously pointed out for WE unless the rolling points, which are used for seeding and selection for junior world cup events until December, are rewritten different from the other 5 squads they will be radically different from team point calculations
- These fencers will have to choose between cadet, junior and SAT date conflicts

It is still early, perhaps the new national coaches will reconsider the team selection criteria. Events for team selection haven't yet been designated either.

[1337]

just a random question to the user "teacup"...
you mentioned in your opinion stated above that some fencers who struggle financially will go to weaker tournaments?
I'm new to this kind of stuff, i was wondering what you meant by weaker international tournaments.
thanks

[teacup]

just a random question to the user "teacup"...
you mentioned in your opinion stated above that some fencers who struggle financially will go to weaker tournaments?
I'm new to this kind of stuff, i was wondering what you meant by weaker international tournaments.
thanks

There is a great deal of difference in the strength of tournaments. Cadet designated events are local tournaments in another country. Just as there are small tournaments in the US with only a few rated fencers and large strong tournaments with lots of A rated fencers, the same is true in Europe. Just because an event is in another country is no guarantee that it is stronger or more difficult than a domestic event.

When points are calculated for junior and senior international events there is a strength factor consideration based on a formula on the total number of fencers, the number of internationally ranked in the top 8, top 16, top 32, etc. A fencer who places 16th in a tournament with a 2 strength factor earns more points than a fencer who places 16th in an "easier" .5 strength factor event.

For most squads there is no strength factor calculation for cadet designated, local European cadet events. Therefore a fencer who places 16th in a "weak" cadet event, (a tournament with 70 fencers, 20 of which are US fencers and few highly ranked Europeans) earns the same number of points as someone who places 16th in a "strong" cadet event, (250 fencers with many highly ranked fencers).

Cadet fencers who place 16th in a Cadet Designated Event will earn 350 points compared to someone placing 16th in a NAC who will earn 200 points.

Therefore a cadet fencer who wins a cadet event in Europe will get 700 points whether there are 200 strong fencers or 50 weak fencers, (perhaps half of them from the US). If a fencer is trying to make a US cadet team and has financial constraints, it makes more sense to go to the weak tournament for the potential to get the greater number of points, even than going to a domestic Div I event now that Div I points don't count for Group II or in the case of women's epee at all.

For women's foil and epee an unlimited number of fencers can attend cadet designated events, the only eligibility criteria is that they have attended a Y14 or Cadet NAC. For JO's and Summer Nationals there are qualification paths and for Jr. WC's only 12 fencers are eligible.

(In some instances it may even be less expensive to attend a European Cadet designated event than a domestic event.)

Does that help?

[happy]

How about that? You all know what that means, right? It means that Group II points, which used to include Div I NACs, now are only international events. That means that fencers and families must bear the additional expense of going to Europe perhaps even more than they planned, as they can't use Div I NAC points in Gp II anymore. So more, expensive trips abroad would be needed to make up for the fact that Div I events are now in Grp I. The team selection criteria could now be considered unbalanced, and would seem to favor those who can travel abroad even more than was the case in previous years. Agree or not--opinions please?

Well - speaking of cadet fencers:

Since the team being selected is for fencers who are going to attend the *world* championships, I think there's a very good argument to require at least one international event in order to qualify. Do we want the fencers representing the US to be fencing in their first international event?

In addition, since most of the cadet events will be attended by top european cadets (thanks to the advent of the european cadet circuit), it is a good opportunity for US fencers to scout at least some of the competition.

(Speaking of the world championships, I would think this year is a good year to miss anyway, since they appear to be located in Baku, Azerbaijan, a mere 336 miles from Tehran as the missile flies.)

[Mr.MightyMouse]

A Cadet with 4 decent international results will have significantly increased odds to make the WC Team,
IMHO at least 5 trips to ensure such would be necessary, as everyone has a bad day.
I've tried to stay in Europe for a week+ and hit 2 tourneys - but school situation became a bit of nightmare, I've also yet to figure out a way for a 4-5 day trip to Europe with a shared coach to run below $1,750.
At 5 X 1,750 = 8,875 = nuttn' to sneeze at.
It does seem a bit odd that the rules are out, 'fore the Coaches are announced - mayhaps once them are in - they'll change yet once again?
Thankfully, I'm past this quagmire.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

(Speaking of the world championships, I would think this year is a good year to miss anyway, since they appear to be located in Baku, Azerbaijan, a mere 336 miles from Tehran as the missile flies.)

Not to mention this from Forbes Magazine last year:

"Unless you're in the oil business, there's little reason to brave the choking pollution of Baku, Azerbaijan. Fetid water, oil ponds and life-threatening levels of air pollution emitted from drilling and shipping land the former Soviet manufacturing center at the bottom of this year's list as the world's dirtiest city."


Puts a whole new spin on "choking on the strip."

[CorinneG]

Hello all:

I will be working on the points this weekend and hope to have them to the office by Monday. I'm waiting on one final piece of info from the National Office that could delay the Senior Points.

I can't answer the question about the Cadet Div I points. I need to know what the new handbook says in Chapter 3 regarding the rolling points before I'll know if the Div I results will be in G1 or G2 for rolling. Lots of calculations to change.

I have not heard any timeframe for the new system to go up. I am not aware if they are working on it or not. I did volunteer to run the points in parallel for a while to make sure things are going OK, but have not heard anything back.

So - Summer Nationals points (maybe minus Seniors) should be at the office on Monday - plenty of time for everyone to check for my mistakes. It's practically impossible to calculate 60 different point standings without making at least one. I thank everyone out there who has checked them and let me know about problems. If you find any, you can post on this thread - I'll keep an eye on it.

Corinne

[Soberin]

Hello all:

I will be working on the points this weekend and hope to have them to the office by Monday. I'm waiting on one final piece of info from the National Office that could delay the Senior Points.

I can't answer the question about the Cadet Div I points. I need to know what the new handbook says in Chapter 3 regarding the rolling points before I'll know if the Div I results will be in G1 or G2 for rolling. Lots of calculations to change.

I have not heard any timeframe for the new system to go up. I am not aware if they are working on it or not. I did volunteer to run the points in parallel for a while to make sure things are going OK, but have not heard anything back.

So - Summer Nationals points (maybe minus Seniors) should be at the office on Monday - plenty of time for everyone to check for my mistakes. It's practically impossible to calculate 60 different point standings without making at least one. I thank everyone out there who has checked them and let me know about problems. If you find any, you can post on this thread - I'll keep an eye on it.

Corinne

Thank you as always for being on top of things. Doing the points while/if the new system is installed would seem essential to make sure it works correctly.

Is there currently a new Handbook that will change the way rolling and team points are calculated for all weapons, or are only some weapons and/or age categories to be affected?

[CorinneG]

I'm not in the loop for the development of the new Athlete Handbook. Because of the change in the Cadet World Championship Team selection, there MAY be a change in the way the Cadet rolling points are calculated, but I'm not sure.

I do not believe any of the other basic calculations will change, but until the handbook comes out, we never know.

I am sorry the Nationals points haven't come out sooner, but my brother and his wife just had a little girl - I'm now an Aunt! I've obviously had other things on my mind this last week. Father, Mother, and little Lucy are doing fine.

[Inquartata]

It's practically impossible to calculate 60 different point standings without making at least one.

And THAT is why I am so fervently opposed to going to a points-based ratings system! I can check whether or not a renewed letter rating went through properly with ease. With a point-based system, each of us had better do the calculations ourselves...

And math and I do not get along!

[flechewounds]

I'm not in the loop for the development of the new Athlete Handbook. Because of the change in the Cadet World Championship Team selection, there MAY be a change in the way the Cadet rolling points are calculated, but I'm not sure.

I do not believe any of the other basic calculations will change, but until the handbook comes out, we never know.

I am sorry the Nationals points haven't come out sooner, but my brother and his wife just had a little girl - I'm now an Aunt! I've obviously had other things on my mind this last week. Father, Mother, and little Lucy are doing fine.

Corrine -

Are you dare saying that life events interfere with fencing? Blasphemy!

Anyhow, congratulations! I'm sure we'll find out soon enough

Best regards,

Gary Zeiss