CA knife laws vs fencing

[GuyW]

Couldn't find a thread here on this, hope I didn't miss it.

CA has some unfortunate knife laws (don't get sidetracked...).

Fencing swords, to my non-lawyer but educated eye, seem to meet the CA definition of the elusive "dirks or daggers"....well actually, almost anything is a dirk or dagger per CA law.

Concealed dirks/daggers carried "on the person" are illegal (carried in equipment bag).

Taking dirks or daggers to a public or private K-12 or college/university is illegal, unless the reason is "school sponsored"....private orgs holding events at schools is suspect as to "school sponsored".

So, has anyone definitively laid my concerns to rest??

Thanx,

.

[BenTheEMOP]

Um, I am not a lawyer, but wouldn't they need to be sharp to count as a dagger?

It seems that California fencing continues unabated, so I guess someone has worked it out.

Have there been a rash of arrests?

[Allen Evans]

I'm not an attorney, but I think you're over reacting.

[Purple Fencer]

You're reading waaaay to much into the law, Guy....the G bugles we played back in the day are more of a deadly weapon than a fencing one (especially if wielded by mid 80s Madison!).

Congrats on your son's finish at SN, by the way...AWESOME! (3rd Div II ME, correct?)

[Phrogger]

Pretty much every state has some sort of concealed weapons law, and they're all still fencing too. Better to worry about those crazy schools that are trying to enforce their wacky "zero tolerance" weapons policies in college dorms.

[GuyW]

CA Penal Code 12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
…
(4) Carries concealed upon his or her person any dirk or dagger.

(ie, carried in his/her bag)

(24) As used in this section, a "dirk" or "dagger" means a knife or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death. A nonlocking folding knife, a folding knife that is not prohibited by Section 653k, or a pocketknife is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death only if the blade of the knife is exposed and locked into position

Now, somewhere I recently read about a public high school play, where one moron managed to stick his epee thru the eye, all the way to the back of the skull, of his unfortunate fellow actor....I'd call that "great bodily injury", yes?

And why all the protective gear, if not for "great bodily injury??

Thanks, Sam...my son is so excited he can't get his feet on the piste to do footwork....
.

.

[GuyW]

Pretty much every state has some sort of concealed weapons law, and they're all still fencing too.

Yeah, and they're probably relying on LE to have common sense. I don't want to rely on that, but insist that the laws are rational (of course, we're talking about CA where the laws of finance have been suspended...)

Better to worry about those crazy schools that are trying to enforce their wacky "zero tolerance" weapons policies in college dorms.

Well, that's in play here, too:


CA Penal Code 626.10

(a) Any person, except a duly appointed peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or the federal government who is carrying out official duties while in this state, a person summoned by any officer to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace while the person is actually engaged in assisting any officer, or a member of the military forces of this state or the United States who is engaged in the performance of his or her duties, who brings or possesses any dirk, dagger, ice pick, knife having a blade longer than 2 1/2 inches, folding knife with a blade that locks into place, a razor with an unguarded blade, a taser, or a stun gun, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 244.5, any instrument that expels a metallic projectile such as a BB or a pellet, through the force of air pressure, CO 2 pressure, or spring action, or any spot marker gun, upon the grounds of, or within, any public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or any of grades 1 to 12, inclusive, is guilty of a public offense,punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or by imprisonment in the state prison.
(b) Any person, except a duly appointed peace officer as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, a full-time paid peace officer of another state or the federal government who is carrying out official duties while in this state, a person summoned by any officer to assist in making arrests or preserving the peace while the person is actually engaged in assisting any officer, or a member of the military forces of this state or the United States who is engaged in the performance of his or her duties, who brings or possesses any dirk, dagger, ice pick, or knife having a fixed blade longer than 21/2 inches upon the grounds of, or within, any private university, the University of California, the California State University, or the California Community Colleges is guilty of a public offense, punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year, or by imprisonment in the state prison.
(c) Subdivisions (a) and (b) do not apply to any person who brings or possesses a knife having a blade longer than 21/2 inches or a razor with an unguarded blade upon the grounds of, or within, a public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or any of grades 1 to 12, inclusive, or any private university, state university, or community college at the direction of a faculty member of the private university, state university, or community college, or a certificated or classified employee of the school for use in a private university, state university, community college, or school-sponsored activity or class.
(d) Subdivisions (a) and (b) do not apply to any person who brings or possesses an ice pick, a knife having a blade longer than 21/2 inches, or a razor with an unguarded blade upon the grounds of, or within, a public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or any of grades 1 to 12, inclusive, or any private university, state university, or community college for a lawful purpose within the scope of the person's employment.
(e) Subdivision (b) does not apply to any person who brings or possesses an ice pick or a knife having a fixed blade longer than 21/2 inches upon the grounds of, or within, any private university, state university, or community college for lawful use in or around a
residence or residential facility located upon those grounds or for lawful use in food preparation or consumption.
(f) Subdivision (a) does not apply to any person who brings an instrument that expels a metallic projectile such as a BB or a pellet, through the force of air pressure, CO2 pressure, or spring action, or any spot marker gun upon the grounds of, or within, a public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or any of grades 1 to 12, inclusive, if the person has the written permission of the school principal or his or her designee.
(g) Any certificated or classified employee or school peace officer of a public or private school providing instruction in kindergarten or any of grades 1 to 12, inclusive, may seize any of
the weapons described in subdivision (a), and any certificated or classified employee or school peace officer of any private university, state university, or community college may seize any of the weapons described in subdivision (b), from the possession of any person upon the grounds of, or within, the school if he or she knows, or has reasonable cause to know, the person is prohibited from bringing or possessing the weapon upon the grounds of, or within, the
school.
(h) As used in this section, "dirk" or "dagger" means a knife or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death.
(i) Any person who, without the written permission of the college or university president or chancellor or his or her designee, brings or possesses a less lethal weapon, as defined in Section 12601, or a stun gun, as defined in Section 12650, upon the grounds of or within,
a public or private college or university campus is guilty of a misdemeanor.

[Purple Fencer]

CA Penal Code 12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
…
(4) Carries concealed upon his or her person any dirk or dagger.

(ie, carried in his/her bag)

(24) As used in this section, a "dirk" or "dagger" means a knife
or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of
ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury
or death. A nonlocking folding knife, a folding knife that is not
prohibited by Section 653k, or a pocketknife is capable of ready use
as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury or death
only if the blade of the knife is exposed and locked into position

A fencing weapon is a bit of sport equipment...it's purpose is NOT to cause bodily harm....there aren't any edges or points (unless the blade breaks). They're talking about jacknifes, kitchen knives, stilettos, etc...something DESIGNED to cut or puncture.

You can do just as much major damage with a baseball bat.

Now, somewhere I recently read about a public high school play, where one moron managed to stick his epee thru the eye, all the way to the back of the skull, of his unfortunate fellow actor....I'd call that "great bodily injury", yes?

No....that's stupidity by people who think they know how to do stage combat...not the fault of the epee....the fault of the users.

And why all the protective gear, if not for "great bodily injury??

Same could be said of batting helmets or football padding.

Thanks, Sam...my son is so excited he can't get his feet on the piste to do footwork....
.

.

Oh don't worry...that'll change the first time he tries to live off the brand new "B" and someone else hands him his head!! Who's his coach, by the way? Saul? Is Chuck Alexander up there??

And WHEN are we going to see you guys up here at an Orange Coast or San Bernardino tourney? Both are epee heavy.

[Stormbringer]

As used in this section, a "dirk" or "dagger" means a knife
or other instrument with or without a handguard that is capable of
ready use as a stabbing weapon that may inflict great bodily injury
or death.

And where does this leave ball-point pens, fountain pens, sharpened standard pencils, and mechanical pencils - all of which can be used as rather effective stabbing weapons, particularly if aimed at the eyes and/or neck?

[GuyW]

A fencing weapon is a bit of sport equipment...it's purpose is NOT to cause bodily harm....

The cited code reads "capable of", not "intended to".

A fencing weapon is a bit of sport equipment...it's purpose is NOT to cause bodily harm....You can do just as much major damage with a baseball bat.

Yeah - baseball bat - bad argument. You can have one in your car in CA, but you better have a ball and mitt....and never admit its "for defense"....if its admittedly for self-defense against alleged humanoids, its an illegal (felony) billy club per the Penal Code. Cops use this one every day....

I don't make this stuff up, folks....

Who's his coach, by the way? Saul? Is Chuck Alexander up there??

Officialy - Alex A.

Always - Saul.

Unofficialy - Gustavo, Chuck....and whomever else of quality wanders thru the door...

I know Guy4 appreciates each of them...

Brief bios on coaching staff:

Head coach Saul Mendoza is 3-time South American Champion, 5-time Bolivian Champion, and
former member of Bolivian Pan American and Olympic teams.

Coach Alex A. of Latvia has a Fencing Master college degree, is former member of the Latvian national team and is Assistant Coach for the Latvian team.

Coach Gustavo Ducuing is 6-time South American Champion, former member of Argentina Pan American Team. He has a Fencing Master degree from The National Academy of Fencing in Italy, and was Assistant Coach for the Italian National Fencing Team.

I'm beyond embarassed that I don't know Chuck's lengthy resume...

And WHEN are we going to see you guys up here at an Orange Coast or San Bernardino tourney? Both are epee heavy.

Maybe soon....I perhaps rely too much on club talk about upcoming events, and too little on AskFred...

Gotta run - its club nite at San Diego Fencing Center!
.

[GuyW]

And where does this leave ball-point pens, fountain pens, sharpened standard pencils, and mechanical pencils - all of which can be used as rather effective stabbing weapons, particularly if aimed at the eyes and/or neck?

All are in play with this (IMHO) un-Constitutionally-vague piece of work (which never gets overturned in court, because its 99% dirtbags who get convicted of it, and they're unsympathetic appellants...)

.

[Phrogger]

California isn't unique in having these laws.

From the NC Firearms Statue:

It is a Class 1 Misdemeanor for any person to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any BB gun, stun gun, air rifle, air pistol, Bowie Knife, dirk, dagger, slingshot, loaded cane, switchblade knife, blackjack, metallic knuckles, razors and razor blades (except solely for personal shaving), fireworks, or any sharp pointed or edged instrument (except instructional supplies, un-altered nail files and clips, and tools used solely for the preparation of food, instruction, and maintenance on educational property). It is also a Class 1 Misdemeanor for any person to cause, encourage, or aid a person who is less than 18 years old to possess or carry, whether openly or concealed, any of these items on educational property.

But I don't see the point in debating a law that nobody's tried to use against fencing. Are you trying to give them ideas or something???

[GuyW]

But I don't see the point in debating a law that nobody's tried to use against fencing. Are you trying to give them ideas or something???

Nah - I'm gathering info to get this stupid-@#$ law changed, so no fencer will ever have a problem with it.

It's not in my makeup to allow government the rope to hang me...
.

[whtouche]

Nah - I'm gathering info to get this stupid-@#$ law changed, so no fencer will ever have a problem with it.

It's not in my makeup to allow government the rope to hang me...
.

You are trying to gather info to get a "stupid law" changed so that it can continue to not at all affect a group of people who are currently not at all affected by it...?

Ooook

[masker]

You are trying to gather info to get a "stupid law" changed so that it can continue to not at all affect a group of people who are currently not at all affected by it...?

Ooook

After the Great California Fencing Scare of 2011 and the resulting crackdowns, you'll be rolling your eyes in the gulag, mister. IF YOU STILL HAVE THEM.

[I_luv_saber]

Nah - I'm gathering info to get this stupid-@#$ law changed, so no fencer will ever have a problem with it.

It's not in my makeup to allow government the rope to hang me...
.

It's really only aimed at gangmembers...


That said, it's a stupid law that needs to be repealed anyway. It could be used against someone it's not intended to though. I don't know about other parts of CA, but around Fresno cops look for a reason to search you and generally give you a hard time (hoping to get you on something else). I could definitely see, around here, a cop having a bad day and hassling me over having "weapons". IIRC, it's happened before around here, when some group was practicing in the park.

Basically, you would think that people use logic, but that's not necessarily so. And just because you aren't getting droves of people abused by this law, is not a good reason for not doing anything about it. That kind of a cop out argument that could be used on lots of things.

[Allen Evans]

Nah - I'm gathering info to get this stupid-@#$ law changed, so no fencer will ever have a problem with it.

With the goal being to make concealed knives legal?

I've never head of a fencer being arrested for carrying his or her gear in a fencing bag. I think your energies would best be directed in some other public service.

[fdad]

I've never head of a fencer being arrested for carrying his or her gear in a fencing bag. I think your energies would best be directed in some other public service.

They are watching from a distance for that weak moment when he needs to bring a blade to a tournament or the amouror and then they will pounce. His only way to stay out of the pokey is to lead a revolt against those who persecute carriers of sharpened pencils and fencing equipment.

[CvilleFencer]

Hey, its Cali. Find like what, five people, to sign a petition. Then write yourself up an amendment to be voted on. Construct it so that it sounds like it is obviously discriminating against a minority or group other than middle class white people or poor black people, find some wacko church to bank role it from out of state and then have a law worded more to your liking amended to the states "constitution".

[chris437]

"Look out...he's got a pencil!"

Oh the horror...