Interested in Tungsten pommels?

[EldRick]

I've come across a source for Tungsten pommels , which would fit foil, epee, and sabre.

These would be solid tungsten balls of about 25mm to 30mm diameter, with the appropriate 6mm tapped hole.

Advantages over brass or stainless pommels are:

- Heavier than most pommels. The heaviest pommel I've come across is 170g, and that's not enough to balance a heavy blade with a reasonable-length French-grip handle.
With Tungsten, you can balance your weapon like a dry foil, with the balance point an inch front of the guard. This allows thumb-and-forefinger point control, which is more difficult if the balance is further forward (unless you have very strong fingers).

- Tungsten being one of the densest metals available, the pommel is as compact as possible. Brass weighs 8g/cc. lead is 11g/cc. Tungsten (and gold) are 18g/cc.

- Having a compact weight closer to the guard reduces rotational inertia and allows faster blade motion.

- Durable - Tungsten is very tough stuff. These pommels don't scratch easily, and will last a lifetime.

So my questions to any readers would be:

- Would you buy one or more online at a price point in the US$25-40 range, depending on the surface finish (polished=more) and the desired weight?

- How much would you pay for ball-bearing polished, vs. sintered surface with a visible waist-band?

- What weight/size would you want? Choices range from 135g to 215g, with commensurate sizes of 25mm to 30mm. I'd want to pick one or two sizes to offer, in order to get enough to at least cover the minimum fabrication costs.

So, how bad do you WANT ONE? Let me know with a post in this thread, and if there is enough interest, I'll produce a batch.


P.S. - - Would pretty spacers be desirable if supplied with a Tungsten ball pommel? I've used polished stainless spacers to adjust balance at the pommel - they look a lot nicer than a stack of flat washers, and come in 1/16" increments.

[DangerMouse]

I would buy one in any finish if the shape is right. Take a look at Josh's Schermasport pommels. If you can make the same shape in a heavier pommel, I would definitely be interested. If the pommel is just spherical, I have no interest at all.

[EldRick]

These would be spherical.

But why the fixation on the "classic" shape?

[erooMynohtnA]

Most people interested in pommels are pommelers, and I think a sphere would be pretty disadvantageous to them.

[CMiner]

I don't so much care about the polish or shape, but I'd be interested in trying one out.

[piste off]

Most people interested in pommels are pommelers, and I think a sphere would be pretty disadvantageous to them.

I agree, although I suspect EldRick will argue that there is a market for people that want the heavier weight to balance the weapon while fencing conventionaly (not pommeling).

A pommeler would should prefer a taper. My first coach used to machine our pommels with different weights (as I recall, the favorites were 175 to 185 grams). Either a pure taper or about 3/4" flat at the back, then tapered to the front, were the best shape.

I will try to dig out one of those and post a picture.

Nice idea on EldRick's part - as I think today's pommels are not that great... especially if you pommel (including the Scherma).

Rick

[EldRick]

The major benefit, IMHO, is in balancing the weapon further aft without violating the handle-length rules, for pommelers and for those who don't. My own preference is about 180g or so for balance.

However, the spherical shape in Tungsten is not appreciably larger diameter than the "classic" 150-170g pommel in brass, at 25-28mm. It makes a nice grab-able "lump" in the hand when pommeling.

As to a market - that's what I started this thread to find out. If there is one, why, I'll get my Tungsten pommel paid for...

[DangerMouse]

I suppose I should be slightly more specific. If they have roughly the same shape as the Schermasport, I would buy one or two sight unseen. If they are spherical, I'll have to try one first. Unfortunately, it'll be a while before I get a chance to make it to Portland again and to check out the Deckstar.

[Wetmelon]

I wonder how this would do on a saber if fitted properly... Just to see what it feels like. Though, I like a blade weighted heavier than most people...

[CvilleFencer]

If they were shaped right, I would be all over them and that price is comparable to my preferred Shermasport 2 piece pommels. Although truth be told, a design like the FWF but heavier and with a texture of some sort would be easier to machine and I think would be just as well with a lot of people.

As for selling them for foil and epee without keeping pommelers in mind, beginners don't care/won't spend the money and the handful of classical fencers and older folks who still use an F grip without pommeling probably won't buy them unless you claim they are made by some random fencing master no one has ever heard of and sell them with a coat of arms or some such gimmick.

[EldRick]

I'd have guessed that a small heavy sphere would be good for pommeling:

- a 1-1/8" sphere is just enough bigger than the F grip to give a tactile indication that you are at the end, and can even be used with the ball in the palm for decent strength.

- because the sphere is shorter than a standard tapered "classic" brass pommel, you could use a longer grip-handle while staying within the maximum length rules

- because the sphere would potentially be heavier than anything else out there, you could have the balance point be inside or aft of the guard, and balance even a heavy epee blade, giving better leverage for extreme pommeling

What am I missing about this?

BTW, spherical is what could keep the price down, by minimizing the machining.

[chinbeard]

"When I pommel, I like to hold it at the very end, with the pommel in my palm. If it was replaced by a ball, it would decrease the length, and my hand would be that much closer to the tip than it was before. Longer grips are not very available, and unless Coach Reith makes a longer grip, I'm not buying that pommel." <==I think that's the problem that some people would have with it.

Also, textured pommels (like AF has) are nice.

(I rarely use a French, so take this with a grain of salt...)

[CvilleFencer]

Pretty much what Chinbeard says are the issues. I have a type of grip I like to use, and I like to have the maximum length I can get away with. I also curve my F grips and if I were making my own grip out of wood or an easily gotten material like that (putting aside that I would break them when I flick) to accommodate a tiny pommel, it would not bend in the way I like it to in my vice (well I could use mild steel for the grip and grind it down to a shape I like, then drill an 8mm or so hole through it and then bend it to custom make my grip, but forging the steel would be a lot more time than I have anymore!). So unless you plan on making custom F grips as well, it would need to work with the market standard F grips to be successful.

Also, if you ask for marketing advice on a potential product and then people give it to you for free before you drop some scratch on tooling and machining and realize you have missed what your target market wants, that is a smart use of a group like this. However once folks give you that focus group data, ya probably don't want to spend to much time arguing with them over why they are wrong about their opinions.

[piste off]

I'd have guessed that a small heavy sphere would be good for pommeling:

- a 1-1/8" sphere is just enough bigger than the F grip to give a tactile indication that you are at the end, and can even be used with the ball in the palm for decent strength.

- because the sphere is shorter than a standard tapered "classic" brass pommel, you could use a longer grip-handle while staying within the maximum length rules

- because the sphere would potentially be heavier than anything else out there, you could have the balance point be inside or aft of the guard, and balance even a heavy epee blade, giving better leverage for extreme pommeling

What am I missing about this?

BTW, spherical is what could keep the price down, by minimizing the machining.

Length issues aside (this can always be adjusted somehow), a sphere at the end is no way more attractive/efficient than a more tapered pommel. I've tried every configuration imaginable and the best is really what I would call a 3/4 tapered format (about 1/4 flat at the back and tapered from there).

Too thick at the back, as a sphere creates, does not allow proper fingering or strength realtive to a more tapered shape (and my hands are huge).

American fencing used to have a great shaped pommel, but today most suck in comparison (even the Sherma two-piece). Also, you may be overestimating the value of balance. I use the LP carbon fiber and the point of balance is about a foot before the guard (!) and it works fine.

R-

[the ancient one]

I would be interested, but I would be more interested if the tungsten came in the form of 3 or more short cylinders that I could stack up to the desired weight and then secure with an appropriate nut which would not need to be tungsten at the end. You could offer the same form factor in lighter material to make up the remaining length. I would be yet even more interested if the pieces would nest into one another so that they would stay organized on the grip.

My french electrics weigh in at ~330 grams with a very light insulated pommel that I would guess weighs about 50g. I could only add (by substitution) about 200g and still be legal.

I weighed a "standard" foil pommel and got ~110 grams.

The limit on epee is more generous..

[EldRick]

I've got a couple of the 150g pommels from AFS - tht's what I'm describing as a "standard" or "classic" shape.

I completely agree that a multi-part adjustable-weight pommel would be ideal, but I've been trying to keep the price down by minimizing the post-sintering machining of the Tungsten, which is tough stuff to work.

As to the spherical shape, apparently some feel that a sphere is not ideal for pommeling. If a maximum-length pommel is desirable, then Tungsten is just not the right material for the job.

A lighter material would give the right weight with extended length along the grip. Maybe cast zinc or brass with lots of holes drilled for surface texture would give a more ideal longer pommel for posters?

[antonsilver]

I get the idea, the father away from the balance point you can get your weight, the more it counts = less weight needed!

I know it seems like over exaggerated fine-tuning, but it doesn't seems to stop most fencers!

I would throw in a lightweight plastic or rubber cone that fits to the ball, to be placed between the handle and the pommel (so together you get the appropriate length and slope, that everybody wants) - shouldn’t cost you many bugs to get produced!

and the finish (shiny of cause) there is far to few shiny things for fencing weapons!

I would buy it just for the name... Tungsten has nice professional sound to it!

[Nolano]

Wouldn't tapping the hole be rather difficult? Tungsten is harder than a witches teat.

[EldRick]

The vendor would include the tapped hole in the sintered spheres.

BTW, appearance is a medium grey metal, with some sintering artifacts visible. See this link for some images. Balanced Russian grip

Tungsten is so hard that it's difficult to dull the edges with carborundum sandpaper, so it's not easy for mere mortals to even polish.