I couldn't tell if he actually hit anything or not with that one. I'll give him points for being creative, but that's an infighting throw, not one to do from advance lunge + distance.
I'd like to see if he can actually hit it, because if he lands it it's highlight-reel worthy regardless of right of way.
- huh?
- ... what?!?!
- *sigh
- *facepalm
- bad camera angle and too much noise to tell if there was any blade contact
- judging by the still at 4:01, probably a single light for FotL
- Really?!?!
- *sigh
- FotR is too prime-happy.
- FotR should have taken a retreat, extended, and plugged FotL in the face while he was running in.
- Yet another reason the valid target should be extended to include the whole head, rather than just the bib...
- I suppose the kid's creativity should be applauded...
- * recalls the second post in the "Foil Still a Standard?" thread... then thinks how well this would work in epee or sabre... and why this does/should throughly refute the notion of foil as a "standard"...
- After seeing this, can those who do so still take issue with WF? Really...?
- *sigh...
Above is the opinion that this sort of action is what is bad about foil, but I think it is what defines foil's character. The maneuver itself is stupid, but that's not the reason he was successful. He was successful because of the set up.
I have to say that I think creativity like that is to be applauded. If he didn't land it, he clearly could have. Earlier in the bout I would say it is reckless, but by that point he easily could have seen a repetitive reaction on his opponent's part that would make that work. And I think there is value in scoring attacks like that if you can. You steal reaction speed from your opponent in the future because they have to wonder what blue sky attack you may pull out. I am not saying that foil fencers should spend much time on it, but it is worth having something like that in the bag. Also, I think creativity like that really inspires others. I felt inspired, and I am an older epee fencer.
I'm at work and don't have a foil with me, but I'm having a hard time even pantomiming how one would accomplish this and still have their thumb within 2cm of the inside of the guard.
I'll try it when I get home, but off the top of my head, Group 1, abnormal fencing.
I'm at work and don't have a foil with me, but I'm having a hard time even pantomiming how one would accomplish this and still have their thumb within 2cm of the inside of the guard.
I'll try it when I get home, but off the top of my head, Group 1, abnormal fencing.
The 2cm rule is not about how you must hold the weapon; it is about the design of the grip. It is a materials rule (in the m. section), not a technical rule (t. section).
The 2cm rule is not about how you must hold the weapon; it is about the design of the grip. It is a materials rule (in the m. section), not a technical rule (t. section).
The 2cm rule is not about how you must hold the weapon; it is about the design of the grip. It is a materials rule (in the m. section), not a technical rule (t. section).
Well... I would argue that it's a bit of both.
t.16
If the handle has no special device or attachment or special shape (e.g. orthopaedic), a fencer may hold it in any way he wishes and he may also alter the position of his hand on the handle during a bout. However, the weapon must not be — either permanently or temporarily, in an open or disguised manner — transformed into a throwing weapon; it must be used without the hand leaving the hilt and without the hand slipping along the hilt from front to back during an offensive action.
When the handle has a special device or attachment or has a special shape (e.g. orthopaedic) it must be held in such a way that the upper surface of the thumb is in the same plane as the groove in the blade (in foil or épée) and perpendicular to the plane of the flexibility of the blade in saber.
m.4
If the grip (or glove) includes any device or attachment or has a special shape (orthopaedic) which fixes the position of the hand on the grip, the grip must conform to the following conditions.
(a) It must determine and fix one position only for the hand on the grip.
(b) When the hand occupies this one position on the grip, the extremity of the thumb when completely extended must not be more
So, with the orthopedic grips, it must determine/fix only one way of holding it (which we know that none of them do, but that's a separate argument) and that the thumb must be within 2 cm of the guard when the hand is in this single, fixed position.
Originally Posted by cplmontana
But would he get in trouble for covering? He does take a rather radical angle in...
Probably not; last I heard (or anyone told me), covering is called when the top of the fencer's head is facing the opponent, and generally isn't called when their head is raised so that their face is facing the opponent.
Edit: Well, forethought got to the t.16 reference first...
Last edited by Stormbringer; 07-13-2009 at 07:59 PM.
Reason: Acknowledgement of faster vs slower typing...
Jerry and Jason have been working on that move for a while. Both want to be able to pull it off at a tournament sometime or another. Can't tell from the clip whether he actually got it or not. When it's done, the hand has only a modicum of control on the grip. It's basically resting the blade on the shoulder and pushing it like a billiard cue.
I have to say that I think creativity like that is to be applauded. If he didn't land it, he clearly could have. Earlier in the bout I would say it is reckless, but by that point he easily could have seen a repetitive reaction on his opponent's part that would make that work. And I think there is value in scoring attacks like that if you can. You steal reaction speed from your opponent in the future because they have to wonder what blue sky attack you may pull out. I am not saying that foil fencers should spend much time on it, but it is worth having something like that in the bag. Also, I think creativity like that really inspires others. I felt inspired, and I am an older epee fencer.
-ph
I would also agree that the kid's creativity/ingenuity/improvisation/whatever-one-wishes-to-call-it should be applauded (as previously stated) and commended.
However, I can also agree with erooMynohtnA's assessment:
Originally Posted by erooMynohtnA
The maneuver itself is stupid...
Though...
Originally Posted by erooMynohtnA
The maneuver itself is stupid, but that's not the reason he was successful. He was successful because of the set up.
Only in foil can you flourish like that.
I would disagree with this portion of the post, on the grounds of disagreeing with the seemingly implied premise that foil alone allows one to flourish by using long, drawn-out, complicated, well-planned setups for a final, devastating offense against an opponent who's taken the proverbial bait, even if the action is finally executed in a "stupid", "messy", "ugly" way.
(Though, epee and sabre, I think, have somewhat lower average thresholds for those WRT continued likelihood of effectiveness...)
I'm at work and don't have a foil with me, but I'm having a hard time even pantomiming how one would accomplish this and still have their thumb within 2cm of the inside of the guard.
Originally Posted by edew
Jerry and Jason have been working on that move for a while. Both want to be able to pull it off at a tournament sometime or another. Can't tell from the clip whether he actually got it or not. When it's done, the hand has only a modicum of control on the grip. It's basically resting the blade on the shoulder and pushing it like a billiard cue.
For the sake of experimentation, it works with 1.) Belgian-grip-equipped epee, 2.) Cetrurlo-grip-equipped epee, and 3.) French-grip-equipped epee.
All are held with the thumb against the guard (i.e. physical contact with the pad).
It is indeed like a pool cue, with the side of the head taking the role of the guiding hand.
[...]
(Though, epee and sabre, I think, have somewhat lower average thresholds for those WRT continued likelihood of effectiveness...)
Eh?
As for set-ups, epee is king for set-ups. Many epee fencers work just to get that one hit and it takes a lot of time to get the opponent into that correct mental and physical state.
Wow! There is a kid after my own heart. Unfortunately, T53, grounding the foil against the metallic vest, touch annulled, yellow card. As kool as it is, if you were to score with it, it should not count for that reason and a card would have to be issued whether it hit or not.
I'm a foil fencer, and I can change, if I have to, I guess.
For the sake of experimentation, it works with 1.) Belgian-grip-equipped epee, 2.) Cetrurlo-grip-equipped epee, and 3.) French-grip-equipped epee.
All are held with the thumb against the guard (i.e. physical contact with the pad).
It is indeed like a pool cue, with the side of the head taking the role of the guiding hand.
I just tried it when I got home, I can do it with an LP Belgian without my hand moving from the standard grip on the handle, though for me it puts my shoulder in an almost locked position. Inherently, not something to card for with regards to the hand position, but I'd shake my head if I saw anyone doing it, anywhere, regardless of whether or not it lead to a touch.
As for set-ups, epee is king for set-ups. Many epee fencers work just to get that one hit and it takes a lot of time to get the opponent into that correct mental and physical state.
I was insinuating that "stupid", "messy", "ugly" actions can work in epee and sabre as well, but that there are factors (such as the expanded valid target area and much lower lock-out times, among others(?)) that result in there there is a lower upper-limit on how "messy" or "stupid" or "ugly" an action can be without requiring sheer luck to work.
In other words, I'm positing that there is a much smaller margin of error in epee and sabre than in foil (listed in increasing MoE?), so one has to be somewhat more careful in both their selection, timing, and technical execution of actions.
... and that the action that prompted the thread exceeds the epee/sabre limits - and even those of what I had come to understand exemplified "good" foil - to which I, personally, am accustomed... to the point of shock, even...
Without some extraordinary shoulder joint flexibility, it would be impossible not to cover target with the mask. Chang comes pretty close to covering target with the mask, but his blade is clearly resting on his lame (grounding) at the shoulder. In order to do it legally, (no grounding on the lame) I'm guessing he would have to trade another card (covering target) to pull it off or dislocate his shoulder.
I'm a foil fencer, and I can change, if I have to, I guess.
Originally Posted by forethought 
