Gaylord Venue--Good or Bad?

[catwood1]

Reffing issues must belong in a different thread but I like the y14 and divII team ideas, cadet team, divIII team. Of course this depends on fixing the ref issues. Last couple of days the sabre reffing was a very sad statement about the usfa's committment to its athletes. Events should be cancelled if the reffing isn't there.... but that's a different thread.

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I actually thought the reffing was good. I saw very few weak refs. I was doing basically nothing but foil, so I can't speak to the sabre, but in foil I thought it was pretty strong. I heard overall good things by other referees, and by observers.

And fixing the "reffing problem" should be a simple thing to fix... :-/

I think div2 teams would be awesome though. I think so many people enjoy teams, and almost all div 2 fencers are out of it after the first round. A D2 team event would be very fun. I would add a D2 team event over any other team events like Y14.

And if you want to cancel events because of bad reffing, then who decides if there is good enough reffing or not? And who pays back the fencers for their entry fees, and hotel fees, and airfare?

[oso97]

They reduced the size of the room by a third for the last day. I don't know if that was the USFA's idea or the Gaylord's, but it meant double-flighting D2WS and made it difficult to find warm-up strips.

Actually, the double-flighting of D2WS had more to do with the ... less than optimum referee situation than anything else. *sigh* Don't I know just HOW less than optimum the referee situation was...

A tip of the mask to David Sierra, who was completely professional and objective in spite of the fact that ( I suspect ) he considers me an ass.

*chuckle* Thanks Inq. Actually, you ARE an ass, its not just in my consideration . However, that's off strip. What happens on strip has (to me, at least) absolutely no bearing on what happens off strip. Heck, I considered it a major professional compliment when I was asked to referee the D2WS gold, with what could have been "loosely" considered a conflict... And both sides were not only fine with it, they were rather happy.

I don't play favorites on strip when I referee. Or unfavorites.

Besides, some of my favorite people are complete asses!

[Phaeton]

I had a DE directed by a 13 year old girl as well. I turned out to be glad. She was a lot of more qualified than the other people I ended up drawing as refs. She was great. Especially for a 13 year old. Overall I think the quality of directing was so-so. I'm used to seeing better from the USFA, and I saw a lot of people getting screwed over, but this is fencing en masse on an amateur level, and that is par for the course.

That said, the venue was perhaps one of the worst venues I have stayed at. Last three years at nationals I was there for two/three more days than I was this year, and I still ended up spending less money on the trip.

The venue was isolated. The food was expensive without much variety. The rooms were expensive. And, even with all the expense, everything was of stunningly mediocre quality. There was absolutely nothing to do around the venue. The waits for the under 21 portion of the Texan station that I experience when I went with my club mates were over an hour. The food selection was limited. I'm telling you, after this trip I'm considering becoming a vegetarian.


I really feel that the USFA was in collusion to screw us out of our money. I realize this was not the case, but it feels that way. If nationals are there next year, and I'm not in a situation where going is vital, I'm just going to ditch and the spend the money on camps/NACs.

To sum it all up: the venue was like Disneyland without the fun.

[darius]

2 of my VET40MF DEs were presided over by a 13 year-old girl... and she was good. But still, it makes me wonder how seriously the USFA takes the event.

The two teenage girls they had refereeing foil events were making better calls than some of their observers.

Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I actually thought the reffing was good. I saw very few weak refs.

I saw some, but didn't get screwed by too many...mostly we try to put it on the athletes to adjust ("so-and-so doesn't see preparation, so make sure you make the opponent stop" or "don't esquive with your riposte, they'll ignore the fact that you parried and call it a counterattack"). We had more problems with assesseurs than referees.

Most of the calls I want reviewed are from refs who should know better.

If this is true, I can say right now that I will not be going, because I can't afford to pay out the ass for a resort this insanely expensive again.

Priceline is your friend. I know people who Pricelined $40/night hotels. Rental car for $20/night, and even with $12 parking you're OK, but if you make friends or pick somebody's lunch up and get the validation, you could get that for free.

That rental car means you can hit up local eateries and get your meals for $6-15 instead of $15-30. (Notable problem: too many late night team gold-medal matches means NWFC coaching staff eats 4 nights in a row at Steak N Shake...my digestive tract was quite unhappy.)

We stayed in Homewood Suites and put 7 coaches/athletes in suites for <$200/night, including free breakfast and shuttle service...that week of stay gets us a free night at another Hilton. Think outside the box and you'll be rewarded...not to mention the satisfaction of sticking it to THS.

darius

[edew]

[...]
(Notable problem: too many late night team gold-medal matches means NWFC coaching staff eats 4 nights in a row at Steak N Shake...my digestive tract was quite unhappy.) [...]

Did you try the deep-fried malted milkshake?

I think Dallas (area) and fine dining are two concepts that can be paired in a correlated way.

Last time (NAC B?) in Dallas, went to one of those high-end steakhouses in old-towne part of Dallas. Blah. I can get day-old rib-eyes at JiffyMart that has better taste and texture than at that $39/plate restaurant.

Portions are large (too large) but quality is low.

[dberke]

The bartenders at Texas Station told me that the USFA had confirmed the Gaylord once again for NAC E in Dallas. If this is true, I can say right now that I will not be going, because I can't afford to pay out the ass for a resort this insanely expensive again.

I suspect the bartenders were wrong. I was told by Christine or Ashley (can't recall which) that NAC E next season will be at the Dallas Convention Center, downtown - same place as the November 2007 NAC.

I'm going to trust them on this one, and not the bartenders!

Dan

[Allen Evans]

I know that Seattle has been considered a few times for NACs, but the sticking point has always been the cost of the convention center ("free" is not one of the prices that was ever quoted) and coming to an agreement with the surronding hotels. A Div II/III was held in Bellevue (across the lake from Seattle) but was a perfect storm of sponsorship, reduced venue price, and a few other factors. I doubt that combination will happen again.

Nationals have grown so big it may be harder and harder to find "cheap" locations that can accomodate everyone, not just in the venue itself, but also in hotels. But this is speculation on my part.

I'll second Darius on his comments: with a little bit of planning and flexiability, it's possible to control -- to some extent -- your costs at Nationals at NACs. The web and a few teammates or fellow fencers are your friends.

[hello?]

I would say, that they might even consider shortening the number of days by adding more events to the last few days. When the vets show up, the strips are not all fully utilized and that's a waste of resources.

.

Well, they cut the number of rooms in half. Fine, except there was a total of ONE empty strip to warm up in for WE Vet 50. 29 fencers sharing a strip is not right. I was ok because I had shown up earlier to get a lesson from my coach, who was warming up two club mates for Div 2. So I was ready and one of the first to use "The Strip." But the women who showed up at a reasonable time, thinking they'd have enough time to stretch and get a few bouts in, got none. I wish event organizers took into account 'warm up strips' when they figure out how many strips they need to start an event.

[Piranha]

I agree about needing more strips for warming up. Before the Div 1 WE I saw a grand total of 2 free strips, and we were surrounding them like vultures waiting for our turns. Ug!

[Mr.MightyMouse]

All I can say about Gaylord is "Never Again".

As far as reffing - 4 events - 2 badly blown calls - par for the course - no biggie - neither cost me or team a bout.
I did observe more ref abuse than ever though - a bit stood out :
Mom - who seemingly knew not much about fencing - screaming at a Saber one : "You can not see at all, why are you reffing?",
a Coach leaving the bout to look at another one , then yelling at the Ref that the score was wrong
a Mom going berserk on a ref with a broken remote control
Arkady nearly coming to blows with other coaches 2-3 times + 20 minute protest delay when his fencer was down 4-10, OK that is not THAT unusual,
a Ref (over 21) crying after Coach's comments,
Coaches running to the refs in the middle of the bouts,
numerous Coaches shoving cameras into Refs' faces
Coaches running away from the strips to avoid cards.
Almost comical - IMHO, if it would not be so tragic.

[Purple Fencer]

I think that these two are related phenomena. It is a LOT more difficult to make out anything over the PA at the "lower-numbered strips" end of the room than at the other, and lots of people have complained about that, so the BC may have started yelling to be heard better there

Yelling louder and projecting better are two different issues. People raising their voice to be heard in a crowd also tend to raise the pitch of their voice...which makes it get lost in the background.

They also tend to yell from their throat instead of projecting from their diaphragm.

There's a reason military drill instructors issue their commands in a slightly deeper voice from the diaphragm...it cuts through everything. My drum major voice is the same way....when I'm on the podium counting off the show, my voice drops.

Ask anyone near me at the "Gore for the Gold" or "Stro Memorial" tourneys in SoCal last year...the BC asked me to make some strip calls occasionally...and one person at the Stro said the only announcement she could clearly hear and understand was mine...and she was at the opposite end of CalTech's gym at the time.

[Sinestra]

I suspect the bartenders were wrong. I was told by Christine or Ashley (can't recall which) that NAC E next season will be at the Dallas Convention Center, downtown - same place as the November 2007 NAC.

I'm going to trust them on this one, and not the bartenders!

Dan

This is quite possibly the best news I've had all day. Christine and Ashley both strike me as much more reliable sources Thanks for the update!

[brtech]

They reduced the size of the room by a third for the last day. I don't know if that was the USFA's idea or the Gaylord's, but it meant double-flighting D2WS and made it difficult to find warm-up strips.

It was the Gaylord's. I don't know all of the details, but they rented out that third to another event for Sunday. We removed 20 strips from that third, reset 6 of them in the remaining part of the room we still had. That brought us down from 60 to 48 strips.

The armory crew (which is last to leave) was out of the venue by 7:45, which we considered to be excellent, and much better than we feared due to the reduced number of strips (which you would have thought would extend the fencing day to at least 7:30). It didn't. The directors and BC staff moved through the events very quickly.

Getting out early was somewhat assisted by being able to pack up the 12 strips Saturday night.

For armory, the venue was fairly good. The acoustics were bad, which made "technician to strip blah blah" much harder to hear. We also had problems with the food cost and the lack of easy ways to get off the ranch. We ended up eating at the sports bar nearly every night, because they were the only restaurant that would accept our vouchers (if we worked a late evening) AND take the 20% off for the USFA card. That brought the $15 hamburgers down to a reasonable price.

[piste off]

Ok, I know it has been said already... but I'd like to say it again.

MAJOR THANKS TO EVERYONE WHO HELPED PUT ON/WORKED THESE NATIONALS!!!

We can critique to help make things better, but all realize that without these folks sacrificing we would have nothing.

I continue to be awed.

R-

[Inquartata]

Actually, you ARE an ass, its not just in my consideration .

Bah. This is a normative determination.

I agree about needing more strips for warming up. Before the Div 1 WE I saw a grand total of 2 free strips, and we were surrounding them like vultures waiting for our turns.

On the last day, we were fortunate enough to occupy a strip which had been assigned to epee but had developed a grounding problem, so the ref moved to another one. No need to worry about another ref showing up with a bout sheet there, and for sabre grounding is a non-issue.

[rockchalk77]

I'm realizing my decision to stay at the Super 8 and drink vast quantities of beer at Flips's down the street was the correct approach for this trip. I may not be that good of a fencer, but I can sense beer from miles away and beer makes me happy.

[flechewounds]

I'm realizing my decision to stay at the Super 8 and drink vast quantities of beer at Flips's down the street was the correct approach for this trip. I may not be that good of a fencer, but I can sense beer from miles away and beer makes me happy.

Good luck doing this next year - check out the BoD thread or the USFA compelling hotel thread... they're trying to institute a forced hotel program through THS called Stay and Play (although I think it will be Stay and Pay).