En Garde for Beginners

[ColinD]

My question is whether or not to teach beginning foil fencers to keep their non-weapon hand elevated near their head or down by their side. What do you teach and why?

The traditional method is hand near the head to keep it out of the way, support in lunging and to prevent them from covering their target as attacks come in.

However, watching video after video and fencing myself I realize virtually no one keeps their hand above their head anymore.

[darius]

There are two main issues:
- It is against the rules to cover valid target with the unarmed hand.
- What is best, biomechanically. There are some few arguments for and against every position here, but the elevated back arm, to me, is not particularly useful.

Personally, I teach that the back hand should mirror the front hand, which provides a nice balance. We tend to enforce that the hand should be above the elbow, which keeps fencers from inadvertantly covering target.

darius

[Allen Evans]

I think you'll find that most coaches would give Darius's advice. The hand elevated near the head introduces un-needed tension in the shoulders, and doesn't confer any superior mechanical advantages over other positions.

[Lady Quindecim]

I taught begenners to hold it up, but after a few weeks, I introduce them to alternatives. Mostly because when they are starting out, there is enough to worry/think about without haveing a clealy defined notion of where the arm should be. But we are talking young kiddos here.

By the way, if it stays up more than 4 hours, call your Dr.

[epeeslasher]

Like these first two pictures when they start and then after a few months they can fence like in the last one.

Also, if you've ever seen an Italian foil fencer making a counter-reposte, their back arm usually starts rising because they are underpressure to make the hit and in most cases fencers revert to their basic training when they are under pressure; in the beginning they are taught to raise the back arm without creating tension in the shoulder (like in the first two pictures).

I teach my fencers to lift both hands from the elbows when hands are at their sides, this way there can be no unnecessary tension made while moving the arms to en gaurde position.

[ColinD]

Great ideas.

I might try having them bend the arm up from the elbow instead of actually raising the hand.

[Goldgar]

Originally Posted by ColinD

My question is whether or not to teach beginning foil fencers to keep their non-weapon hand elevated near their head or down by their side. What do you teach and why?

In teaching beginners, I have them begin with the hand in the traditional position, while stressing that relaxation is more important than the exact position. I *anticipate* that before long, the hand will gravitate to a lower position that is still essentially up (though not higher than the shoulder) and back -- that is the position I want them to end up in.

[MdA]

Originally Posted by Lady Quindecim

I taught begenners to hold it up, but after a few weeks, I introduce them to alternatives. Mostly because when they are starting out, there is enough to worry/think about without haveing a clealy defined notion of where the arm should be. But we are talking young kiddos here.

Originally Posted by epeeslasher

Like these first two pictures when they start and then after a few months they can fence like in the last one.

Also, if you've ever seen an Italian foil fencer making a counter-reposte, their back arm usually starts rising because they are underpressure to make the hit and in most cases fencers revert to their basic training when they are under pressure;…..
.

Originally Posted by Goldgar

In teaching beginners, I have them begin with the hand in the traditional position, while stressing that relaxation is more important than the exact position. I *anticipate* that before long, the hand will gravitate to a lower position that is still essentially up (though not higher than the shoulder) and back -- that is the position I want them to end up in.

Why teach anything to a beginner that you intend to abandon later? As for the Italians….I think the arm rises to avoid a card for covering.

[Goldgar]

Originally Posted by MdA

Why teach anything to a beginner that you intend to abandon later?

Because we have more to deal with than the ideal concept of the action. Often we are attempting to counteract natural dispositions, so that ultimately a better action results.

For a different example, when teaching beginners to execute an attack for the first time, I get best results by having them extend the weapon arm fully before initiating the footwork. This offsets the natural tendency to lunge-then-punch, and over time makes it easier to guide the student into a smooth extension throughout the attack, or whatever other variations may be tactically required. I have yet to see a fencer taught this way "get stuck" on the early full extension, while I have seen many fencers have a devil of a time learning to begin their attacks with the point, not the feet.

With the back-arm position, having them keep it well up and back from the start offsets a natural tendency to swing it forward, cover target, and slouch over at the end of their attacks.

[thekoby]

Originally Posted by Lady Quindecim

I taught begenners to hold it up, but after a few weeks, I introduce them to alternatives. Mostly because when they are starting out, there is enough to worry/think about without haveing a clealy defined notion of where the arm should be.

This is what I do with my beginners. Since they are mostly college students, I teach them to keep their arm up in what we call the scorpion tail position so they can get used to having their shoulders pulled back to keep the body in a more profile stance. I also find it helpful when teaching the lunge. It's easier to just drop the arm back wards for balance than thrust it back from the side.

During the forth week of lessons we get into basic reffing and rules, so I allow them to put the back arm where it is most comfortable for them, which in turn allows them to see what constitutes covering target area and what doesn't. However, it's really up to who's giving the lesson and how they feel about it. I'll agree with Allen that it causes unneeded tension in the shoulders, causing the fencer to extend with a stiff arm rather than a relaxed one. There are several pros and cons to it.

One final suggestion I have is that if you are teaching your students to keep their arm by their head that while you are working with them either as a group or one-on-one you do the same. A big problem I have with my club is the beginner fencers try to mimic the actions of the senior members and begin to form bad habits that will later be hard to break.

[darius]

A big problem I have with my club is the beginner fencers try to mimic the actions of the senior members and begin to form bad habits that will later be hard to break.

NWFC Rule: When you win a national championship, you can put your hand where you want it.

darius

[Bryn Ralph]

Barbara Hilliard, 82, fences in the North Texas division and recently fenced competitvely. Her en garde position is in the classical Italian method; not surprising since her mentor was Aldo Nadi.

No matter how one instructs the position of the off-hand, the student will make the decision to hold their en garde as personal taste dictates.

As to the correct en garde position, the USFA Fencing Rules 2008 edition, page 19, graphically depicts the off-hand position similar to the classical Italian method.

Argue with the officials of the USFA on this matter; and, please, do not run the messenger through with a direct or indirect thrust. [I am hopeful that my parries will be sufficient to the task.]

I will defer to the USFA and the FIE protocols when it comes to application and/or interpretation of fencing regulations.

[DangerMouse]

The USFA rule book has an illustration that says it is so, therefore it must be. Sure. That's why you see people getting penalized for not coming en garde in the "proper" position.

[knave]

Originally Posted by DangerMouse

The USFA rule book has an illustration that says it is so, therefore it must be. Sure. That's why you see people getting penalized for not coming en garde in the "proper" position.

Actually saw a ref do that once. It was appealed. The appeal was upheld and the decision overturned.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by Bryn Ralph

As to the correct en garde position, the USFA Fencing Rules 2008 edition, page 19, graphically depicts the off-hand position similar to the classical Italian method.

That figure only applies to foil. For epee the figure appears just before t.61 and shows two positions. Which of those two is the "correct" en guard position for epee?

I note that the rear arm is down for each fencer in the epee figure.

-B

[griffindm]

Originally Posted by MdA

Why teach anything to a beginner that you intend to abandon later? As for the Italians….I think the arm rises to avoid a card for covering.

I usually teach beginning epeeists to be able to extend to hand target, close their eyes, and still lunge and hit. They certainly don't do this in competition, but it gets them away from steering their actions, and makes them better at visually picking up counter-attacks by putting their focus on the rest of the opponent, not just the target. There is certainly a place for specific things taught to illustrate a concept, not just for competition itself.

[MdA]

Originally Posted by griffindm

I usually teach beginning epeeists to be able to extend to hand target, close their eyes, and still lunge and hit. They certainly don't do this in competition, but it gets them away from steering their actions, and makes them better at visually picking up counter-attacks by putting their focus on the rest of the opponent, not just the target. There is certainly a place for specific things taught to illustrate a concept, not just for competition itself.

Your example is different....your beginners know it is a training excercise. But, teaching someone the en guarde with the unarmed hand in the classical position is just useless for modern fencing.

Do you honestly expect them to go to a competition and fence with the hand up by their ear? ...and they see the experienced fencers at the club with their hand in the modern position....you are wasting valuable time teaching the mechanics of something they will throw away as soon as they fence their first bout.

Teach it the way darius and allen describe above.

[Allen Evans]

One of the difficulties we have as American coaches is in differentiating older positions, actions, and tactics that are useful and practical from those actions, positions, and tactics which are ineffective--or even harmful--but continue to be taught out of ignorance or loyalty ot a perticular school or style.

Since there is no “National School” of American Fencing, coaches in the US can’t simply consult an authority to make a decision for them about what should be kept and what should be tossed. However, keeping one thing and abandoning another becomes a lot easier when coaches learn to recognize “style” as different from substance, and to combine this knowledge with a little bit of common sense and the use of Occam’s Razor.

When a coach decides they are going to keep an older style or school intact, and teach it as a whole system, they aren’t only making a decision for themselves, they are making the decision for all of their students as well.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by griffindm

They certainly don't do this in competition

Wanna bet? :)

-B

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Wanna bet?

Just because this works for you doesn't imply that it works for everyone.