En Garde for Beginners

[Inquartata]

Who said anything about it working?

[VorpalCat]

I've taken a slightly different tack and have been having my beginners keep their off hand on their back hip (below the jacket, of course). It avoids the aforementioned shoulder tension the 'scorpion' tends to create while giving them a physical reminder to help override the cover-up reflex. That being said, I'm liking Darius's mirroring...

[prototoast]

I've taken a slightly different tack and have been having my beginners keep their off hand on their back hip (below the jacket, of course). It avoids the aforementioned shoulder tension the 'scorpion' tends to create while giving them a physical reminder to help override the cover-up reflex. That being said, I'm liking Darius's mirroring...

The arm being up, the hand on the hip, or the arm behind the back are all ways to immediately tell that a fencer is horrible. If you want to coach a fencer to be good, why make them fail before they've even gotten started?

[catwood1]

The arm being up, the hand on the hip, or the arm behind the back are all ways to immediately tell that a fencer is horrible. If you want to coach a fencer to be good, why make them fail before they've even gotten started?

But on a similar note, I've seen an A or B rated fencer walk into a room. Be suited up when he checks in. Do a classical fancy salute, and get engarde with a high scorpion tail to make everyone think he is awful. Then proceed to wreck his pool...

[MdA]

But on a similar note, I've seen an A or B rated fencer walk into a room. Be suited up when he checks in. Do a classical fancy salute, and get engarde with a high scorpion tail to make everyone think he is awful. Then proceed to wreck his pool...

Thats great. But, i have never seen this at a NAC or a World Cup....or even a SYC.

[darius]

I've taken a slightly different tack and have been having my beginners keep their off hand on their back hip (below the jacket, of course). It avoids the aforementioned shoulder tension the 'scorpion' tends to create while giving them a physical reminder to help override the cover-up reflex.

It forces the shoulder back unnaturally. I don't entirely approve.

That said, I'm glad you like the mirroring.

darius

[Wetmelon]

[quote=Allen Evans;808895The hand elevated near the head introduces un-needed tension in the shoulders, and doesn't confer any superior mechanical advantages over other positions.[/quote]

Only for a beginner... once you develop the skill and strength, that shoulder is looser than a high school cheer leader.

But still, it takes a long time to get it right. I know I don't have it yet :P

Saying that, I would actually say Darius is right: Mirror the front hand and you should never be off balance. If the student is having trouble with covering, then make them get stabbed without flinching. Like a training excercise...

[Allen Evans]

Only for a beginner... once you develop the skill and strength, that shoulder is looser than a high school cheer leader.

Hmmm...I never considered that it might be smart to make learning fencing HARDER for a beginner than it already is.

[catwood1]

Thats great. But, i have never seen this at a NAC or a World Cup....or even a SYC.

I haven't seen someone do it at a NAC. I don't mean that the fencer I was talking about was normally like that! I mean he did it as a joke to make people think he sucked. He was actually a normal modern fencer.

It was just a kinda funny thing to do...

[catwood1]

If the student is having trouble with covering, then make them get stabbed without flinching.

I wouldn't quite word it that way though...

[VorpalCat]

It forces the shoulder back unnaturally. I don't entirely approve.

That said, I'm glad you like the mirroring.

darius

You might be visualizing the hand being further back and/or higher than I ask them to use -- the shoulders should still be in a natural, relaxed position. The idea isn't to pull the shoulder back, it's just to give them a physical cue (i.e. the hand's contact with the body) to counter the 'cover up' reflex. After a short while, the position's not enforced unless someone slips back into cover-up mode. I'll cheerfully admit it's not perfect but it's been a happy medium for me.

[thekoby]

I have the problem of the "cat paw". My back hand rests at my side in a kind of limp kitty paw position. I have no idea where I picked it up or why I so suddenly started doing it two years ago, but it's become a joke around the club. Although I continue to do it, I remind my students not to follow my lead. I've been recently trying to mirror the front hand and keep it back a bit more.

I've seen some clubs teaching sabre to beginners having the students put the back hand on the hip, like they are all singing "I'm a Little Tea Cup". Does this offer any benefit for sabre, or is it just to get them comfortable with not covering target? I have issues with a few beginning sabre students who want to cover target area because they no longer are required to hold their arm in the 'scorpion tail' and thought maybe this would be a good method to start using.

[darius]

Although I continue to do it, I remind my students not to follow my lead.

Absolutely not. I was taught to keep my back hand down, where it basically covers target, and stops when I get into distance. I fenced that way for many years, and coached something similar. However, since we're teaching students to mirror the front hand, I do it too, especially in lessons.

It's disingenuous to tell somebody not to do something (especially when, in our case, there's a push-up penalty) and then for us to do it.

Now in competitive bouts, I'll often revert to what I'm comfortable with...that's fine, the competitive fencers are less impressionable, have their hands in the correct place anyway, and are less focused on what I'm doing. In that case, I'm no longer a teacher, I'm a competitor.

With regards to sabre, have them put it wherever you want. The biomechanics are still an issue, but the covering isn't...nobody enforces it because the first time you get whacked on the hand, you don't do it again. (And usually the touch arrives anyway.)

darius

[Bryn Ralph]

It is obvious from the input (personal and professional) regarding the "en garde" position that a consensus does not exist on this issue.

Perhaps dropping the issue is the best venue.

[griffindm]

Wanna bet?

-B

Okay Brad. I admit I HAVE seen it happen. :P

[Jason]

It is obvious from the input (personal and professional) regarding the "en garde" position that a consensus does not exist on this issue.

Perhaps dropping the issue is the best venue.

Why would a lack of consensus ever mean that discussion of a topic should stop?

And what exactly do you think the word "venue" means??

[thekoby]

Absolutely not. I was taught to keep my back hand down, where it basically covers target, and stops when I get into distance. I fenced that way for many years, and coached something similar. However, since we're teaching students to mirror the front hand, I do it too, especially in lessons.

It's disingenuous to tell somebody not to do something (especially when, in our case, there's a push-up penalty) and then for us to do it.

Now in competitive bouts, I'll often revert to what I'm comfortable with...that's fine, the competitive fencers are less impressionable, have their hands in the correct place anyway, and are less focused on what I'm doing. In that case, I'm no longer a teacher, I'm a competitor.

Usually if I am giving a beginner foil lesson, I'll have my arm in the position I teach them to hold it in. I do the "cat paw" thing when I'm more focused on my fencing rather than what my body is doing, like during a tournament.

...nobody enforces it because the first time you get whacked on the hand, you don't do it again. (And usually the touch arrives anyway.)

This is very true! Although my back hand has only been hit once, and it was by a fencer who was not very good at sabre ( their attacks were very wide and wild), I've had a few students who get their hands hit and complain about it. I ask them if they had their hand behind them, or in front of them...that's when they see their error.

[Inquartata]

I've seen some clubs teaching sabre to beginners having the students put the back hand on the hip, like they are all singing "I'm a Little Tea Cup". Does this offer any benefit for sabre, or is it just to get them comfortable with not covering target?

In the old days, it kept your back hand from getting whacked; we hit harder back then, because you needed to make a sound when you hit or the side judges often missed it altogether.

It also tended to balance some of the shoulder tension inherent in the old classical Hungarian guard position.

No reason for it today, unless you are having trouble with your fencers trying to ward with the off hand or to cover target. Or unless you just want them to look classical.