Sarah Palin stepping down as Governor of Alaska

[thereom4]

It can be, depending on how you got in. On merit? Or, for example, as a legacy? Or---well, there are many roads to Rome. Some are stonier than others.

OMG are you kidding me? You are relentless. Havard Law= hard a$$ school to get into. I didn't apply to Havard Law. Why? BECAUSE I KNEW I WOULDN'T GET IN. Waste $75 on applying to a school I know I can't get into or use that money to apply to a school I'm sure I can get into. Hmm.....tough decision. My personal story aside, here are some stats on HLS a la wikipedia:

Admission to Harvard Law is highly selective: For the class entering in 2008, there were approximately 7200 applicants, of which approximately 11.4% were admitted; 67.9% of those admitted enrolled. For that class, the median GPA for the middle 50% of the students was between 3.74 and 3.95 (out of 4.00) and an LSAT score between 170 and 176 (out of 180).

Regardless of how he got in, (Just FMI, how exactly do you think he got in?)he got in, made it onto law review and was president of law review. Please forward the intelligence test you've authored to me, and I'll send it to President Obama. (but not really) Then maybe just maybe if he passes, (crossing fingers that he will) we can settle this debate and you can admit that President Obama is in fact intelligent.

Preemptive block: I know that the discussion wasn't about Obama's intelligence but that is where we are now so.......

[Sins of the Fleche]

Thereom, while Harvard is a magnificent school, I have two words for you...

Affirmative Action.


I'm not saying Obama got in that way, but I am saying that it certainly didn't hurt his admission and standing.

[Fencergrl]

<fencergrl grabs some popcorn while she waits for thereom4 to come back with her smacking stick>

[Sins of the Fleche]

I know that's not the politically correct thing to say, but the truth of it is, the American political system isn't a true meritocracy.

Like I said, Obama may not have gotten in that way, but he's a very intelligent man, and such men usually know how to play the system to get what they want or need.

[thereom4]

Thereom, while Harvard is a magnificent school, I have two words for you...

Affirmative Action.


I'm not saying Obama got in that way, but I am saying that it certainly didn't hurt his admission and standing.

Ha! ha! And there you have it. Just waiting for some to say it. Thanks for saying it. Affirmative action of course is the only way a minority can get ahead in the country. Hard work schmard work.

Minority accepted into one of a few coveted spots at a prestigious university=affirmative action

Minority promoted to high position in work place=affirmative action

Minority elected President of the United States=affirmative action (Well at least following your logic. Let's retrace shall we? )

If slavery never happened, Africans (now African Americans) would not be in this country. If Africans were never slaves in this country the civil war never would have happened. If the civil war never happened the slaves that were not suppossed to be here would never have been freed. If the slaves that were not supposed to be were never freed, institutionalized racism would never have existed. If institutionalized racism never existed affirmative action wouldn't exist.

Skipping a few steps here, but you get the point....

If Barack Obama's father never met his mother, they would have never gotten married and had Barack. And of course, Barack wouldn't have been born half black. If Barack wasn't half black he wouldn't have gotten accepted into Columbia. He never would have done well enough in Columbia or scored high enough on the LSATs to get accepted into Harvard. He never would have made law review at Harvard. He never would have been elected president of said law review. He also would never had been a community organizer. (for Inq) He never would have been elected junior senator of Chicago. He never would have given that amazing speech at the 2004 DNC. He never would have run for President of the United States on the democratic ticket. He never would have won the party nomination. He never would have gotten so many people to want and embrace change. He never would have mobilized thousands to support his campaign. He never would have won the election by a large majority. He wouldn't currently be President of the United States.

While I'm sure that of course you know that Barack being half black helped him be admitted into Harvard, I'm also sure that you know nothing about class standing. That's all merit pumpkin. Class standing is grades alone. So regardless of how he got in, he stayed in. I don't care how brown your skin is. While affirmative action may have gotten some people into HLS, it certainly can't keep them there.

[Fencergrl]

Don't you love eating popcorn while watching a good smacking?

[Sins of the Fleche]

While I'm sure that of course you know that Barack being half black helped him be admitted into Harvard, I'm also sure that you know nothing about class standing. That's all merit pumpkin. Class standing is grades alone. So regardless of how he got in, he stayed in. I don't care how brown your skin is. While affirmative action may have gotten some people into HLS, it certainly can't keep them there.

If you honestly believe that grading in college or professional school is "all merit," than I envy whatever educational experience you had. From what I've seen, favoritism and unfair practices exist at all levels of education. But maybe I'm just cynical.

I'll agree that hard work can get you places, but look at where Harvard usually accepts candidates for its Law School. It's colleges like Yale, Harvard itself, Dartmouth, Duke, and the like. While Obama did graduate from Columbia, he started out at little-known Occidental. Not exactly a hot bed for Harvard talent.

This is what I'm saying, to clarify. I think Obama is more than intelligent enough to have been worthy of Harvard, he obviously did well while there. I don't think that every time a member of a minority does well it's "affirmative action." However, that doesn't mean that it never happens. Just because Obama is a brilliant man doesn't mean that he pulled himself up by his bootstraps all the way against the grain by being audaciously hopeful. Like many aspiring politicians, he knew how to play the game. I applaud his ability to maneuver, but praising his track record as an example of individual, unaided achievement I think is unfounded.

America is a country where merit alone doesn't always get you where you want. For alot of politicians, you have to know how to work the system, and Obama does.

Just my opinion.

P.S.: I will take the "pumpkin" comment though.

[Inquartata]

Havard Law= hard a$$ school to get into.

"The Wall Street Journal reported last week that Harvard accepts 40% of applicants who are children of alumni but only 11% of applicants generally."

In other words, it's not quite so "hard a$$ to get into" if you're a legacy.

Just one example.

I didn't apply to Havard Law. Why? BECAUSE I KNEW I WOULDN'T GET IN.

Well! I guess that proves it! You couldn't get in, therefore it must be hard!

Do you not see the flaw in that reasoning?

Admission to Harvard Law is highly selective

And THAT proves that it's selective...for intelligence? As opposed to pedigree? Or connections? Or skillful cheating? Or half a dozen other things?

Just FMI, how exactly do you think he got in?

I am sure I don't know. Maybe it was pure merit. Maybe it was the same way Roland Burris got into the Senate. I don't know...and the point is that you don't, either, but are proceeding on the assumption that you DO know---and that it can only have possibly been in one way, the most complimentary way. Nothing else is conceivable, is it?


Look within yourself, young Skywalker. You know that it is true.


( If I had to guess, I would say probably a combination of merit and "connections" made during that time as a "community organizer". That seems to be "the Chicago way".

Considering that he has never released his grades or his LSAT scores, how can we know what went into the decision to accept him to HLS? We do know that his Columbia B.A. was not an honors degree, which means that his GPA was less than 3.3. Do you think you could have gotten in with a 3.2?

Maybe it was something that he accomplished in the 5 years between Columbia and Harvard. Maybe it was writing: We know he's got a way with writing.

From all that non-information, though, it's hard to identify an absolute reason. Unless, of course, one is already passionately committed to one particular reason. )

Thanks for saying it. Affirmative action of course is the only way a minority can get ahead in the country.

How quickly you got to that from "I'm not saying Obama got in that way, but I am saying that it certainly didn't hurt his admission and standing."

So, not saying it is saying it?

Donning my Devils' Advocacy gown ( I edited the Hellvard Law Review, you know ): maybe you think that there IS no AA policy at Harvard Law, or the Review?

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=513672

http://media.www.hlrecord.org/media/...-3515294.shtml

What is it that you think these policies accomplish? If nothing, why do you think that they are there? If something---what?

If slavery never happened, Africans (now African Americans) would not be in this country. If Africans were never slaves in this country the civil war never would have happened. If the civil war never happened the slaves that were not suppossed to be here would never have been freed. If the slaves that were not supposed to be were never freed, institutionalized racism would never have existed. If institutionalized racism never existed affirmative action wouldn't exist.

Skipping a few steps here, but you get the point....

No, actually I have no idea what the point of all that may have been...

regardless of how he got in, he stayed in. I don't care how brown your skin is. While affirmative action may have gotten some people into HLS, it certainly can't keep them there.

I'm wondering whether you are going to swear that just as fervently when you recall that GW Bush both got into and "stayed in" Harvard...and that that proves that he is "intelligent".

No doubt that was somehow "different"?

One more link:

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...409553,00.html

OK, two more:

http://www.nysun.com/new-york/obamas...mystery/85015/

[erooMynohtnA]

If Africans were never slaves in this country the civil war never would have happened.

I disagree and I think this shows an unrealistic view of the circumstances surrounding the Civil War and of wars in general.

[thereom4]

If you honestly believe that grading in college or professional school is "all merit," than I envy whatever educational experience you had. From what I've seen, favoritism and unfair practices exist at all levels of education. But maybe I'm just cynical.

I'm sure favoritism and unfair practices in higher education do exist. But in law school exams are graded anonymously.That means the law profs don't even know whose exams they are grading. And typically only one exam is given for each class. It's a one shot deal.

I'll agree that hard work can get you places, but look at where Harvard usually accepts candidates for its Law School. It's colleges like Yale, Harvard itself, Dartmouth, Duke, and the like. While Obama did graduate from Columbia, he started out at little-known Occidental. Not exactly a hot bed for Harvard talent.

Okay yeah so what's your point? Ivy leagues accept from other ivy leagues? Yeah they do. But someone from a "no name" school with a 179 LSAT score and a 3.9 GPA still has a chance of getting in to HLS.

I don't think that every time a member of a minority does well it's "affirmative action." However, that doesn't mean that it never happens.

Of course it happens. But question why it have to even happen in the first place? If you don't know, please refer to every American history book ever written.

Just because Obama is a brilliant man doesn't mean that he pulled himself up by his bootstraps all the way against the grain by being audaciously hopeful. Like many aspiring politicians, he knew how to play the game. I applaud his ability to maneuver, but praising his track record as an example of individual, unaided achievement I think is unfounded.

Everyone needs help. But remember you threw affirmative action into the pot. I'm just stirring it. Soups up.

Affirmative action........really sounds like, "if not for the fact that ABC, you wouldn't have or be XYZ"

Truth be told I don't know that affirmative action didn't help Barack Obama. I really don't. I wonder if it helped Hillary?

But what I do know is that it didn't get him onto law review, elected president (remember, law review is a student organization) or honors (magna cum laude)

P.S.: I will take the "pumpkin" comment though.

Glad you liked it cupcake.

[thereom4]

I disagree and I think this shows an unrealistic view of the circumstances surrounding the Civil War and of wars in general.

Okay lets think about it. But not that hard. If slaves were not brought into this country the Southern states that seceded would not have a reason to do so. (Well at least slavery wouldn't have been a reason.)

Wikipedia (I know, I know, not the best source):

In the presidential election of 1860, the Republican Party, led by Abraham Lincoln, had campaigned against the expansion of slavery beyond the states in which it already existed. The Republican victory in that election resulted in seven Southern states declaring their secession from the Union even before Lincoln took office on March 4, 1861. Both the outgoing and incoming U.S. administrations rejected secession, considering it rebellion.

[thereom4]

"The Wall Street Journal reported last week that Harvard accepts 40% of applicants who are children of alumni but only 11% of applicants generally."

In other words, it's not quite so "hard a$$ to get into" if you're a legacy.

Just one example.

Yeah if you are a legacy. It's messed up. But I didn't make the rules. It is what it is. Do you have the stats concerning the undergrad GPAs and LSAT scores of the legacies that were accepted? I'm going to assume that they still were high enough to get them in. Remember HLS and the other top ranked law schools are selective because they can be. Accepting students with low GPAs and/or low LSAT scores will bring down the median GPA and LSAT for that entering class. Lower median GPA and LSAT equals lower position in the rankings.

Well! I guess that proves it! You couldn't get in, therefore it must be hard!

Do you not see the flaw in that reasoning?

My point was HLS is a hard school to get into. Knowing that I would be competing with thousands of other applicants as or more qualified than I am is a waste of money. Some law school applicants knowing this similarly don't waste their time and money. If you are able to get in to HLS you've accomplished something thousands of other applicants couldn't.

[QUOTE=Inquartata;809843]And THAT proves that it's selective...for intelligence? As opposed to pedigree? Or connections? Or skillful cheating? Or half a dozen other things?

Pedigree....it happens. Connections.......it happens. Skillful cheating......hmmm and wow.

I am sure I don't know. Maybe it was pure merit. Maybe it was the same way Roland Burris got into the Senate. I don't know...and the point is that you don't, either, but are proceeding on the assumption that you DO know---and that it can only have possibly been in one way, the most complimentary way. Nothing else is conceivable, is it?


Look within yourself, young Skywalker. You know that it is true.

I'll concede that I don't know. I never said nothing else was conceivable. But if you go back a post or two or three you'll read what I was responding to. I was rejecting SOTF saying that affirmative action "certainly didn't hurt his admission and standing." Okay if it didn't hurt it then it helped it. Then the statement really is that Barack Obama got accepted to HLS on affirmative action. Something none of us know to be true or untrue. But I love the implication. *sarcasm*

I'm not sure exactly what it is I'm supposed to know is true. Please enlighten me.

Considering that he has never released his grades or his LSAT scores, how can we know what went into the decision to accept him to HLS? We do know that his Columbia B.A. was not an honors degree, which means that his GPA was less than 3.3. Do you think you could have gotten in with a 3.2?

Maybe it was something that he accomplished in the 5 years between Columbia and Harvard. Maybe it was writing: We know he's got a way with writing.

From all that non-information, though, it's hard to identify an absolute reason. Unless, of course, one is already passionately committed to one particular reason. )

Yes I do think he could have gotten in with a 3.2. But not just a 3.2. The LSATs are there too remember? And you're right those 5 years between Columbia and Harvard do count for something. That's why law schools ask for resumes, a personal statement and letters of recommendation. This btw is standard for most law schools. They want to see what you've been doing, they want to know your motivations for attending law schools, why you would be a good candidate for law school and why their school?

Unless, of course, one is already passionately committed to one particular reason. )

Yeah you might want to go ahead and turn that mirror towards yourselve and read your own lonnnngggggg determined posts Mr. Kettle. I read the threads and all 1,000 of your posts in any given thread tend to say the same thing. Talk about committment.

How quickly you got to that from "I'm not saying Obama got in that way, but I am saying that it certainly didn't hurt his admission and standing."

So, not saying it is saying it?

I'm sorry I thought you understood sarcasm.

No, actually I have no idea what the point of all that may have been...

To give a crude and brief history to show why affirmative action was needed in the first place.

I'm wondering whether you are going to swear that just as fervently when you recall that GW Bush both got into and "stayed in" Harvard...and that that proves that he is "intelligent".

No doubt that was somehow "different"?

No you answered (or at least suggested it) that question yourself. Pedigree. I don't know his GRE scores so who knows he could very well could have earned his spot at Havard Business School. And he did earn and MBA so.......

Oh yeah and a 2.0 is all you need to stay in Harvard and most schools for that matter.

[erooMynohtnA]

Okay lets think about it. But not that hard. If slaves were not brought into this country the Southern states that seceded would not have a reason to do so. (Well at least slavery wouldn't have been a reason.)

Wikipedia (I know, I know, not the best source):

In the presidential election of 1860, the Republican Party, led by Abraham Lincoln, had campaigned against the expansion of slavery beyond the states in which it already existed. The Republican victory in that election resulted in seven Southern states declaring their secession from the Union even before Lincoln took office on March 4, 1861. Both the outgoing and incoming U.S. administrations rejected secession, considering it rebellion.

Trigger, yes; important aspect, yes; impossible without it, no. It's the same reason you can't blame WWII on Hitler or the Iraq conflict on 9/11.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins...ican_Civil_War

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

America is a country where merit alone doesn't always get you where you want. For alot of politicians, you have to know how to work the system, and Obama does.

Well, is that not a sign of his smarts, then? I would think so.

Back to Sarah Palin: She was not part of a political dynasty (or even, if I have read correctly) part of the local political machine. Despite that, she managed to unseat an incumbent and get elected as a rookie. Gotta count for something. I think that a lot of her opponents confuse their own distaste for her political positions and general non-New Englandness for downright stupidity. I see it as a sign of wishful thinking: they think her abhorrent, and want her to be dumb as a rock to boot.

Do not underestimate your opponents, that is a good way to set up defeat.

"But she has done lots of dingbat stuff!" I hear you retort. Er, Yes - I agree. However, that is not proof of substandard intelligence, that is proof of substandard judgement. The two are not the same. I can assure you, during my years in academia I have met several people who obviously are very intelligent (their science proves that) but can show bad judgement on numerous occasions. (In the end, such people go down in history, even is a positive way, much more often than those who are average in both, or have low intelligence and good judgement.)

In some way, I suspect that SP has missed her true calling. If she would have worked as a TV talking head with her own show, she could use her looks (quick: anyone know another grandma who could hold a candle to her? No current DEM politician that I can think of is even close.), ability to connect to core GOP voters all them time, and get better paid.

Maybe she has understood that, and has a surprise job lined up.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[I_luv_saber]

I'll concede that I don't know. I never said nothing else was conceivable. But if you go back a post or two or three you'll read what I was responding to. I was rejecting SOTF saying that affirmative action "certainly didn't hurt his admission and standing." Okay if it didn't hurt it then it helped it. Then the statement really is that Barack Obama got accepted to HLS on affirmative action. Something none of us know to be true or untrue. But I love the implication. *sarcasm*

No, the course of events was:
Getting into Harvard shows intelligence.
Not necessarily, there are factors other than intelligence
No, there isn't (implication being: give an example)
Affirmative action.
*insert rant*

Did I miss something? No one was saying Obama got in on Affirmative action, they were just saying it's possible. And yes, it probably did help. Does that mean if Obama was white he wouldn't have got in? Of course not, and I don't think anyone implied that. But to say it didn't help his situation is blatantly ignoring a very big part of how the world works.

No you answered (or at least suggested it) that question yourself. Pedigree.

So, let me get this straight: You are more willing to believe Bush got in on pedigree, but less willing to believe Obama got in on AA? Why? A moment ago you were carrying the banner that Harvard means you are intelligent! If you want to avoid the "double standard" label, you have some 'splaining to do!

Here is my opinion on it: Yes, Bush's pedigree helped him get into Harvard. Yes, Obama's race helped him get into Harvard. Does that mean it helped either of them graduate? Absolutely not. It did nothing more than help get their foot in the door. Does that mean that if Bush was born to a poor, unknown family and if Obama was white that neither of them would have got into Harvard or graduated? Of course not. Yes, intelligence is necessary to graduate from/get into Harvard... but it's far from the only factor. To ignore that it was a point in their favor however, is being disingenuous.

[Hauptman]

Ha! ha! And there you have it. Just waiting for some to say it. Thanks for saying it. Affirmative action of course is the only way a minority can get ahead in the country. Hard work schmard work.

Minority accepted into one of a few coveted spots at a prestigious university=affirmative action

Minority promoted to high position in work place=affirmative action

Minority elected President of the United States=affirmative action (Well at least following your logic. Let's retrace shall we? )

If slavery never happened, Africans (now African Americans) would not be in this country. If Africans were never slaves in this country the civil war never would have happened. If the civil war never happened the slaves that were not suppossed to be here would never have been freed. If the slaves that were not supposed to be were never freed, institutionalized racism would never have existed. If institutionalized racism never existed affirmative action wouldn't exist.

Skipping a few steps here, but you get the point....

If Barack Obama's father never met his mother, they would have never gotten married and had Barack. And of course, Barack wouldn't have been born half black. If Barack wasn't half black he wouldn't have gotten accepted into Columbia. He never would have done well enough in Columbia or scored high enough on the LSATs to get accepted into Harvard. He never would have made law review at Harvard. He never would have been elected president of said law review. He also would never had been a community organizer. (for Inq) He never would have been elected junior senator of Chicago. He never would have given that amazing speech at the 2004 DNC. He never would have run for President of the United States on the democratic ticket. He never would have won the party nomination. He never would have gotten so many people to want and embrace change. He never would have mobilized thousands to support his campaign. He never would have won the election by a large majority. He wouldn't currently be President of the United States.

While I'm sure that of course you know that Barack being half black helped him be admitted into Harvard, I'm also sure that you know nothing about class standing. That's all merit pumpkin. Class standing is grades alone. So regardless of how he got in, he stayed in. I don't care how brown your skin is. While affirmative action may have gotten some people into HLS, it certainly can't keep them there.

Give it up.... you might as well be arguing that John Kerry was a war hero.... hell, he was just a coward that volunteered for service..... and they'll hand out medals to ANYONE...

This discussion is going nowhere. Sad, but true.

[Inquartata]

Okay if it didn't hurt it then it helped it.

Eh---no.

Can you really not imagine anything which would neither help not hurt a person?

Then the statement really is that Barack Obama got accepted to HLS on affirmative action.

Hey, way to call the guy a liar. YOU know "what he said", better than he does, huh?

Maybe that sort of reasoning is why you "couldn't get into HLS", rather than sheer competitiveness?

I'm not sure exactly what it is I'm supposed to know is true. Please enlighten me.

See previous comment.

The LSATs are there too remember?

And we don't know what he got. So what are your grounds for assuming that they MUST have been a factor?

Yeah you might want to go ahead and turn that mirror towards yourselve and read your own lonnnngggggg determined posts Mr. Kettle. I read the threads and all 1,000 of your posts in any given thread tend to say the same thing. Talk about committment.

While true, it proves absolutely nothing about the validity of your thesis in this case. That's why that particular form of argument has been classified as a fallacy since Aristotle...

I'm sorry I thought you understood sarcasm.

So, what was it supposed to demonstrate, again? Something about whether or not SOTF's observation was possible or likely? No? So just a gratuitous shot, then?

To give a crude and brief history to show why affirmative action was needed in the first place.

It's just a recapitulation of a series of events. I don't see how it shows why anything "was necessary".

And even if it "was necessary"---is it NOW necessary.

Are you familiar with Lyndon Johnson's footrace analogy ( which I think he got from Rawls or someone )? If so, do you have any thoughts on where it might fail? ( Hint: Government is involved. )

Pedigree. I don't know his GRE scores so who knows he could very well could have earned his spot at Havard Business School. And he did earn and MBA so...

Did you read the article which likened his entry to a sort of affirmative action? If so, what do you think about the inference that it helped him get in and stay in---and how is that different from your apparent opinion about whether affirmative action may have helped Obama get in and stay in?

Oh yeah and a 2.0 is all you need to stay in Harvard and most schools for that matter.

So...can we say anything about whether in fact "staying in" says anything about "intelligence"?

[Inquartata]

Give it up.... you might as well be arguing that John Kerry was a war hero.... hell, he was just a coward that volunteered for service..... and they'll hand out medals to ANYONE...

This discussion is going nowhere. Sad, but true.

Translation: WE know The Truth, you and I, thereom4. WE are enlightened; those who disagree with us are obviously either stupid, deluded or blinded by partisanship---which we, of course, cannot be, because we know The Truth. These others will never accept The Truth. Leave them to their unevolved, unenlightened errors; they are not worth our valuable and in all ways superior efforts. It is enough that we know The Truth. The Truth need not be proved; it is simply Known. All hail The Truth, as we know it! Amen.

[Hauptman]

Translation: WE know The Truth, you and I, thereom4. WE are enlightened; those who disagree with us are obviously either stupid, deluded or blinded by partisanship---which we, of course, cannot be, because we know The Truth. These others will never accept The Truth. Leave them to their unevolved, unenlightened errors; they are not worth our valuable and in all ways superior efforts. It is enough that we know The Truth. The Truth need not be proved; it is simply Known. All hail The Truth, as we know it! Amen.

Tell yourself whatever you need to make it through the day.

[lindajdunn]

ay it as many times as you like, it's still definitional retreat and not very convincing at that. Obama's "quality of experience" was certainly no better that Palin's. "Community organizer" is superior to "mayor"? Senator is superior executive experience to Governor? Please!

IMHO, it's insufficient to look at job titles. I looked at what was accomplished while in office. Palin's actions as mayor left much to be desired AND (this is the one that bothered me) she did not appear to learn and apply that learning to future actions while Mayor, during her time in a state appointed role, or even later as governor. Obama's successes as CO were few (if any) but the difference was what he took away from that experience and how he later applied that learning.

Of course, we're back to comparing a VP to a P candidate which is largely due to McCain throwing away the experience card when he selected Palin as his running mate and the media going nuts over it. Regardless of his mother's age, McCain is older than any President has ever been and being shot down and tortured is not conductive to good health and a long life. [Neither is smoking, I'll note.]

The issue now, however, is whether Palin is a valid candidate. Personally, I think she would be a wonderful candidate and a horrible President. I'd rather see her become a commentator on FoxNews.