No progress and other problems

[Roronoa_Zoro]

First of all hi,
i have been doing fencing at the university for almost one year now. (Unfortunately at my school fencing courses weren't offered, so i had to wait for my uni to start.)

I guess this here is the classical school. First of all training of the stance and movement and then going on with the foil.
Everything so good so far.

But lately (1-2months) i am feeling that i make no progress at all concerning techniques and fitness, or even i am going backwards (or it is just others progressing really faster than me...).

1.Stance of the feet : Not the 90° degree between frontfoot and rearfoot. That's what exercise instructor often notices.
I know too, but i feel really uncomfortable at trying and focusing the 90° degree.
Perhaps it has something to do with anatomy.
I have a bit of knock knees and flat feet.

2.Weapon posture:
Real problem here. Somehow your wrist must be pointed outwards whereas your shoulder and arm must twist inwards to cover your body a bit. (sorry i couldn't explain this better)
But focusing on this cost me real energy, it even hurts my shoulders. It makes me extremely dull in my movements and reactionspeed. Perhaps this also does varies with the anatomy?

3. Fitness/reaction/power:
Here i feel i am going backwards and have a feeling that is somehow related to me starting to swim 1-2 months ago.
I am visiting the fencing course twice a week , and most most of the part is leg training and fitness training.
But i don't feel a big rise stamina at all. So towards the end of the course where we can have some small trainingsmatches my body won't listen to me to well.
The legs are ok i guess, but i have problems with my arm (including the shoulder).
Recently i feel easily tired by holding the weapon (foil) for some minutes and doing exercises. It really stresses my shoulders and i feel like getting a cramp in my hand if i don't make a break soon. I am holding the weapon quite loosely but not too lose so i don't know why this happens, especially lately.
Connected with this "tiredness" my action and reaction speed drops to a level that i realize this myself during a fight that my body seems not wanting to do what i want.
Why i get the idea that is related with me starting to swim (once a week)? Well, i heard that if you swim to much your muscles for explosive power will decrease whereas your muscles concerning stamina will improve.
Well, the funny thing about is that in both departement i feel not improving at all.


4. Technique:
I have problem in attacking just after my parade (Riposte).
I guess this is a mental problem and for me it seems quite a big wall. Parrying seems naturall to me and i don't have to think much about it, but after the parade, i just don't do anything but to wait for the opponont's action again, or a break and then attack.
Seeing the vids on Youtube i guess most of the points in foil results from riposte kinda attacks, or?
Parrying and right after this, almost simultaneously seems so hard. Or perhaps i am just untalented.


I really like fencing and enjoy it (especially as there aren't many sports out there suited for a more scrawny guy like me), but recently it feels like a fight.
And i hope i do not lose enthusiasm or even interest in this sport/art.

Sorry for this long post and thanks for all the advice

[erooMynohtnA]

Practice.

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by Roronoa_Zoro

i have been doing fencing at the university for almost one year now.

Fencing is not a sport that comes easily to many people. You've been fencing for less than a year now, and it's natural that you would be struggling with all of the issues you mention in your post. That struggle is likely to continue for at least another year.

From your description of your training, you are with a fairly classical instructor. This is likely to slow your progress as well, due to the insistence of rather rigid posturing and on guard positions (such as the 90 angle with your feet). This may be causing much of your problem with your on guard as well. I suspect you don't have options for other instruction -- or you would have stated so -- but insistance on this form will slow your progress somewhat.

Good luck. Practice and persistance are the keys here.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Roronoa_Zoro

1.Stance of the feet : Not the 90° degree between frontfoot and rearfoot. That's what exercise instructor often notices.

Do as your coach tells you, but that perfect angle is seen more in theory than practice. And I can tell you that letting the back foot point a bit more toward your front than that will save you a lot of strain on your knee over the long run...especially when you slip up and perform an action badly and are at higher risk of injury.

Somehow your wrist must be pointed outwards whereas your shoulder and arm must twist inwards to cover your body a bit.
But focusing on this cost me real energy, it even hurts my shoulders. It makes me extremely dull in my movements and reaction speed.

When I started out in sabre I was taught the classic Hungarian stance of the time, which really put a strain on the shoulder area as well. After a year, though, your muscles really ought to have developed enough so that it no longer bothers you.

It sounds a bit like you're in the old Italian position. Is your torso turned really sideways, to present as narrow a profile to your opponent as possible? It's been alleged that that can really cause some people difficulties related to breathing and musculature issues ( although I never found it problematic, myself ). If your coach will let you present more of your front forward, that might help...

Perhaps this also does varies with the anatomy?

Most things do, to one degree or another. Which is why you see so many variants of posture and so on in fencing, even within "schools". A good coach will take those things into account, but I am given to understand that "classical" salles are much less inclined to permit any deviation from what they consider to be the pure, perfect positions and actions...

leg training and fitness training.
But i don't feel a big rise stamina at all. So towards the end of the course where we can have some small trainingsmatches my body won't listen to me to well.

Well, if you're doing a lot of conditioning before you bout I'd expect that to happen. If your "training matches" are not after a lot of this, I don't know what might account for your endurance problems, apart from, maybe, diet and hydration. You could try drinking more water and/or electrolyte replacement fluids, before and during.

Parrying seems naturall to me and i don't have to think much about it, but after the parade, i just don't do anything but to wait for the opponont's action again, or a break and then attack.

Very common. That will pass with practice. Give it some time.


PS I am glad that unlike so many people you know where your Shift key is to be found! Even if it does seem to be running away from you at times.

[Applesauce and Foils]

It sounds like you're doing okay, after only 1 - 2 months ( a pretty short time)! I understand being frustrated with things that just don't seem to be working, but just know that if you stick with it, you'll work out those kinks in time.

For example, it takes muscle memory to be able to parry and immediately riposte, and that only comes after a lot of practice.

The fact that you are noticing the areas that need improvement is a good sign! Just take it as slow as you need to and work on perfecting things.

A thought: maybe you feel like you're falling behind the rest of the class because they are not paying as much attention to what they're doing. Maybe they feel like they've already learned what they need to, and aren't interested in improving their game. They might have found one thing that works for them, and not even thought about how it could be improved.

Either way, just keep at it. You'll come out better for it!

AF

[Inquartata]

No, he's been at it for a year, he's just hit a plateau in the last month or so.

Get used to the plateaus, you're going to have more of them. Yes, it often seems like they are more descents than plateaus. Don't stress out too much over it, we all go through it.

[Hauptman]

In terms of stamina you may be over-training. It is essential to give your body time to recover otherwise you will destroy more muscle than you build.

Take a break for a week. If you come back stronger and more energetic then you know that you have been over-training. The time off can be useful for recovery of mental focus too.

[Roronoa_Zoro]

Thanks for all the answers.

@Inquartata:

Yes, my torso is almost turned sideways to narrow the hitting zone. More my own doing than the instructor insisting on it.
I will try to turn less sideways next time and see whether it helps.

However it really seems that is the (right) holding of the weapon that causes me shoulder-problems.
Perhaps i should go and check it.

And yes, plateau is the right word.

@Hauptman:
So far it has been twice fencing training a week and once swimming a week.
But a break for one week should be good for recovery.

[the ancient one]

It is certain that if you twist your trunk to the old classical extreme, you are forcing your weapon shoulder to the inside, which in turn forces you to clinch your shoulder blades together to bring your weapon arm back to the outside. All of the resulting muscle tension is just going to fatigue you and slow down all of your actions. Who is teaching you to fence like this?

Relax your shoulders!

Adopt a more holistic approach to learning-don't obsess on one element at the expense of another. You have a lifetime of continuous improvement ahead. Concentrate on developing a well integrated set of footwork and actions, and if necessary find a coach who can better balance the learning process.

[Greg]

The 90 degree foot position is obsolete. Keep your leading foot straight and angle your trailing foot. That is far more comfortable and natural.

[Popkid]

In terms of stance... Don't turn your left shoulder at all (I'm assuming you're a righty). When you're in the on guard stance, both shoulders should squarely face your opponent. Feet should be about a shoulder width apart and squat as much as possible (the more you squat, the better your focus.) As for angle of heels... I just took a look at my stance and it does seem to be 90 degrees. Maybe your front foot is perpendicular to the line formed by your back foot? If so, move it to the right more in order to make it more like a right angle.

If it's taking too much focus to get the proper footwork, RELAX. Get as close as possible. Good fencers can have really unclassical footwork (look at Joppich, for example).

As for the arm... I'm assuming your coach is telling you to keep your elbow in (thats what it sounds like from your description). Yes, it's harder. It requires different muscles. It is pretty important though for proper (classical) parries, ripostes, etc.

Do you take lessons? Your coach should be drilling you with parries (especially parry 4) until you can do them in your sleep (I actually woke myself up once from a bad dream trying to parry 4 something away ).

Fitness/training... Stop swimming. It's great overall conditioning, just like running. However, fencing is a completely unnatural sport. We use weird muscles, we lunge, etc. Train for fencing. Stretch, jump rope (LOTS of jumprope), squats, lunge after lunge after lunge, and most of all, bouting for as long as you can. As others have mentioned, don't overtrain. Build up slowly.

[whtouche]

Originally Posted by Hauptman

In terms of stamina you may be over-training. It is essential to give your body time to recover otherwise you will destroy more muscle than you build.

NO.

Please understand that "overtraining" is a phrase people use to justify being lazy. There is NO chance that by fencing twice a week and swimming once a week you are "overtraining". This suggestion demonstrates a basic lack of understanding of what overtraining actually is. Don't feel bad, like I said, most people use it to justify being weak and lazy.
Think of olympic weight lifters or professional athletes practicing/training at their sport twice a day for multiple hours a stretch. Gymnasts practice for hour upon hour upon hour to perfect their technique. "Two a days" in football parlance. Most of these people will never "overtrain". If that is the case, why would any of you think you have the focus and capacity to approach such a threshold?
If you are fencing twice a week and swimming once, just as an example, let's examine. Assume 4 hours of practice for each, tho I really have no idea. That's 12 hours per week. Out of 168 hours in a week. That's what, 7 percent of the week you spend "over" training? You could be going all out exhausting all your energy every touch or lap during your training sessions and still not overtrain.

Some have said "there's no such thing as overtraining, only under eating" which is obviously an exaggeration, but it holds some truth. If you feel like you are over training, you're either being a big huge baby, or you're under-recovering. Get enough sleep, eat the right foods in the right amounts, and you'll be just fine. Supplement if you like, if that's your style, but don't blame anything on overtraining if you don't understand it.

[Lady Quindecim]

I gotta agree with whtouche... I was reading along and like - 1 swimming session per week? after 2 months? that is 8 sessions. There is no way to expect to see any measurable benefit after 8 sessions.

I am no fitness trainer, but the general guideline (as I understand it) is something akin to 20-30 min cardio, 3 or 4 of 7 days is "maintenance" level exercise. If you want to improve, you really ought to do more.

That being said, I want to defend a little on the case of "overtrain." If your max is - say 100 - can be anything.. and you do 100, 3 times a week. That is bad for proper muscle development. Especially fencing. With a max of 100, the workout should be 70 to 80 and that should be 4 or 5 days per week.

There are training plans that will push max, multiple times a day for about a week until there very little left. Then a rest - 2 or 3 days, and then build back up with a good strong workout. That is more for like taking someone with no athletic history and breaking them down to start from scratch.

So, get comfortable in your posture, and do about 20 min footwork (not all at tempo) about 4 times a week. This can be on class days too.

(But don't listen to me on the swimming - I hate water ... in bulk.)

[Superscribe]

Um, what Lady Q described is what people on an athletic team as being lazy. If you are trying to be better (do it stronger, do it faster, do it longer, do it better), you have to push. that means if your max is 100, you should do it at as much over 100 as you can without hurting yourself or compromising form. AS MUCH OVER 100 AS YOU CAN. Depending on the work out, if your muscles have undergone a lot of breakdown, you might take the next day off and work them lightly. Two days, later, you get back into it.

If anything the reason you aren't seeing immediate results is you aren't pushing hard enough. And don't compromise form. I don't mean take it easy at 80 and 90 so you can have good form. I mean go at 100, try harder, and find that extra 10 so you are lunging at full speed while you're very tired, and yet the form is terrific.

You should build up to this level. You should not try to get to this overnight, but i think you should get to this level eventually.

REMEMBER TO EAT WELL and HYDRATE.

If you work out hard, then you don't work out for a while and come back stronger and with more energy, that does not mean you've been over training. It means you are reaping the benefit of working hard.

Zoro, i don't know what country you're from, but surely there are competitive athletes around. Talk to someone who's JOB it is to make athletes better, like an athletic trainer. Ask them if they have more of a problem getting people to work out as hard as they should, or people overtraining.

EDIT***

I would like to add that there are more ways to over train then just physical exhaustion. What's likely to happen before your body breaks down is that you are so tired of being physically sore and giving up all the hours of the day to training that you get sick of fencing and sick of working out. That can be a type of overtraining. The only cure i've found for this is... taking a break.

[Lady Quindecim]

I just want to clearafy something real quick..
If you can do more than 100, then 100 was not the max, was it? If you can do 100 twice, then it was not 100.
Lets say weights.
If you can lift 100lbs, not 101, and not do it twice without resting. This is your max. How can you "work out" when you cannot do 2 reps? So, you do 90 lbs. until you can't lift anymore. There has to be repetition. - or other time, or.. something.

I do not believe in 110%. That is just saying "oh, I guess I could have been doing more all along."

But yeah, I agree that you have to push yourself further and further - to your goal and beyond.
But for general fitness about 80% of max is a good daily type workout. Training is different.

[Inquartata]

Maybe when an athletic trainer or sports physician weighs in one way or the other I would listen to them on the subject of overtraining...which sounds like...you know...a medical syndrome of some sort.

I would NOT listen to a bunch of lay fencers on a medical subject, though.

Until then, I'm just going to fence as much and as hard as I please, no more, no less.

YMMV.

[Lady Quindecim]

Who are you and what have you done with Inquartata? =^_^=
"Always consult your physician before making any significant change in diet or physical activity."
hehehe

[Inquartata]

I have been on the receiving end of enough sharp comments about not being a doctor and how dare you give advice, that I am now pleased to dish it right back.

[Superscribe]

you don't have to be a doctor to advise on the subject of working out.

[Lady Quindecim]

Originally Posted by Superscribe

you don't have to be a doctor to advise on the subject of working out.

The interwebs are proof enough of that, eh?