No progress and other problems

[Mike O]

You may find this article on fencing body usage helpful. It helped me a lot. The author, David Littell, also used to have some good videos out on youtube -take a look there if you're interested in more from him.

http://www.fencing.net/training-tips...with-ease.html

[Mike O]

You may find this article on fencing body usage helpful. It helped me a lot. The author, David Littell, also used to have some good videos out on youtube -take a look there if you're interested in more from him.

http://www.fencing.net/training-tips...with-ease.html

Here's a link to Davied Littell's youtube page. The first few videos in his instructional series may offer you some help.

http://www.youtube.com/user/davidlittell

Good luck!

[Inquartata]

you don't have to be a doctor to advise on the subject of working out.

No, of COURSE you don't. Free speech and all that.

But that advice should also be regarded with "healthy" skepticism. Or so I have been told many times, when, for instance, I "advise" people to skip drills and just bout. Because, you know, "experts" say otherwise. Or when I "advise" people that canting their tangs accomplishes nothing. Because, after all, "the experts" all know better...

Don't look now, there's a guy behind you with a Morton's fork.

[Roronoa_Zoro]

@Mike O : thanks for the links

Now reporting back from 2 training sessions.

My footwork is same level as the others (though with my flat feet i feel every lunge heavily).

What i lack is definitely skills in leading the blade and holding the weapon.

Though i am holding it as relaxed as i can (without it falling) , i always feel about to get a cramp in my hand after a short time. It is really irritating and didn't get better over the time.

Perhaps i lack endurance/power in my grip. We usually only focus on footwork, but almost none on arm,hand-strength.
What are good excersises to strengthen your grip?

Also, i am using a french grip. Tried to use the pistol grip several time. There i really get a cramp in no time with my hand.
Seeing how other people hold it effortlessly over a long time, i think i must really lack strength in my arms.

Another question specifially for foil:
If opponent launches an forward attack and i somehow manage to avoid it, but have no time/space to unbend my arm completely and still hit (almost like my opponent running in my blade). Does this hit count?

[Lady Quindecim]

It does not sound like strength in your hand/arm if it is cramping so quickly, or it would do that with more everyday things. Probably some sort of bio-metric thing where the position you are holding is causing it.

But, as always, that is un... something... advice. Qualified. That is it. My _unqualified_ advice.

And on the lack of full extension... there are many posts on that. the definition is that the arm has to be _extending_ to be offensive; not that it has to be extended to score.

Thanks, and good luck.

[CMiner]

Perhaps i lack endurance/power in my grip. We usually only focus on footwork, but almost none on arm,hand-strength.
What are good excersises to strengthen your grip?

Stress balls, or other similar things that provide resistance to squeezing. Not expensive. But if you are getting cramps, it likely has more to do with how you are holding the grip than on hand strength.

Also, i am using a french grip. Tried to use the pistol grip several time. There i really get a cramp in no time with my hand.
Seeing how other people hold it effortlessly over a long time, i think i must really lack strength in my arms.

Which pistol grip did you use? There is a wide variety, and it is very likely you were using one not suited to your hand size/shape. Triplette has some good photos if you're unsure: Triplette Pistol Grips

Another question specifially for foil:
If opponent launches an forward attack and i somehow manage to avoid it, but have no time/space to unbend my arm completely and still hit (almost like my opponent running in my blade). Does this hit count?

If it hits and the light goes on, it counts. If you completely avoided your opponent's attack, then it is your point no question. Doesn't matter if your arm was bent, you're eyes were closed, or you were singing show-tunes.

[Superscribe]

No, of COURSE you don't. Free speech and all that.

But that advice should also be regarded with "healthy" skepticism. Or so I have been told many times, when, for instance, I "advise" people to skip drills and just bout. Because, you know, "experts" say otherwise. Or when I "advise" people that canting their tangs accomplishes nothing. Because, after all, "the experts" all know better...

Don't look now, there's a guy behind you with a Morton's fork.

Better than being Buridan's Ass.

With your previous examples, it's not a matter of expertise. The problems above are so simple it makes not sense not to just try it yourself. Wave a blade around uncanted. Wave the blade around canted. Was there a difference? Question is solved.


ZORO: maybe you should hold a pistol grip less tightly. It's very easy to hold a pistol grip too tightly, and tha will cramp you hand "in no time"

[Inquartata]

With your previous examples, it's not a matter of expertise.

And with yours, it is.

Why should anyone heed your opinion on overtraining ( or mine )? What are your qualifications to speak to the subject, apart from, apparently, acting a supercilious know-it-all? What makes you an expert?

Yes, I know: Pot and kettle again. Nevertheless, you are not a sports physiology expert, so why are you not only giving out sports physiology advice but doing it in a manner which says that anyone who doubts you is an obvious fool?

[Emma]

Hi. I have no opinion on the technique questions, but here's my two cents on the fitness thing. This applies most especially to that classical/strained position you described:

Fencing a little will get you a little bit in shape.
Fencing a lot will get you a little bit in shape.
Fencing a WHOLE LOT will get you a little bit in shape.
Fencing even more than that will get you a little bit in shape, and also injured.

If you want to work on fitness, cross-training is the answer. Pure fencing workouts, no matter how many of them you do, won't give you what you're looking for. So if you're trying to build strength or stamina, add more non-fencing workouts into your week. Swimming is supposed to be a good choice. I can tell you from experience that brazilian jiu-jitsu (it's like wrestling) is even better, but for some unknown reason most people don't go that route. I can't imagine why )

[Privateer]

If you want to work on fitness, cross-training is the answer. Pure fencing workouts, no matter how many of them you do, won't give you what you're looking for. So if you're trying to build strength or stamina, add more non-fencing workouts into your week. Swimming is supposed to be a good choice. I can tell you from experience that brazilian jiu-jitsu (it's like wrestling) is even better, but for some unknown reason most people don't go that route. I can't imagine why )

took the words right out of my mouth/fingers. My only change would be to add in some 'fast twitch' exercises to work on burst speed/strength. Keep the swimming in there, but you need other things also.

Another option is yoga. I recently started it a couple times a week and it's really helping with my flexibility and improving strength in the stabilizer muscles around my knees and hips. I know, yoga is for sissies, that's what I thought too. But it's probably the best no impact cardio/strength workout I've ever done.

[Roronoa_Zoro]

Ok, after several times now, i think i have figured it out, why i can't hold the weapon too long.
I think it has less to do with lacking strength.

Perhaps i also described it a bit wrong.

It isn't really a cramp (atleast does not feel like the cramps you get in your legs) , but my hand is feeling slowly numb and then almost completely. Unlike the pain in my feet (thanks the anatomy), i can't controll it anymore and have a hard time to hold the weapon straight.

So it has something to do with the nerves of my hand.

I am often at my PC ....so after some google, i found out that these monotonous activity can damage your nerves.
And i hope mine are only sore. I really feel uncomfortabel.

How i found out? I stretched both arms and closed my hand and opened it for a while until my right hand/arm began to feel numb, while with my left untrained hand i still felt no fatigue.

To make it short: I def. must visit a neurologist to fix it.


And thanks for all the answers so far.

[Emma]

add in some 'fast twitch' exercises to work on burst speed/strength.

yep seconded

[Superscribe]

And with yours, it is.

Why should anyone heed your opinion on overtraining ( or mine )? What are your qualifications to speak to the subject, apart from, apparently, acting a supercilious know-it-all? What makes you an expert?

Yes, I know: Pot and kettle again. Nevertheless, you are not a sports physiology expert, so why are you not only giving out sports physiology advice but doing it in a manner which says that anyone who doubts you is an obvious fool?

Generally, information about things i'm talking about are so commonly documented and easy to research I invite people to research about the subject themselves.

Like overtraining. Just google the thing. Ask a middle school coach. Ask a high school coach. Ask them how often they see someone overtrain, and what it took to overtrain. If you have information or stories that debunks my arguement of how hard it is to overtrain, please feel free to share them. That's what this forum is for. Or continue to be petulant.

Inq, you seem a bit sensitive about this. Is there an example of me giving advice that was wrong? Did i espouse a doctrine that was well known to be flawed? I'd encourage you to show it to me so I can either justify it, or apologize for it. Or continue to be petulant.

For some thing's, it is good to have an expert's opinion. Like whether or not you need brain surgery. Some thing's just require the opinion of anybody who has gone through life: 1) In general, should you drink bleach? 2) In general, do you have to work hard to get better at something? 3)In general, will waving around this bent piece of metal be different than waving around this straight piece of metal?

[Inquartata]

Generally, information about things i'm talking about are so commonly documented and easy to research I invite people to research about the subject themselves. Like overtraining. Just google the thing.

Well, but a quick Google did NOT exactly reveal a plethora of "no such thing as overtraining" articles...

Ask a middle school coach. Ask a high school coach.

Are THEY sports physicians?

If you have information or stories that debunks my arguement of how hard it is to overtrain, please feel free to share them.

I'm just saying that is a matter of the individual athlete, and your personal experience is no more generalizeable than is mine.

For instance: I guarantee you that any attempt by 52-year-old me to "train" like 31-year-old Tim Morehouse would result in a slew of overuse injuries to my already-tenuous knees, right supraspinatus, and so on, and probably exhaustion into the bargain. Much less training like a 16-year-old world team member. See what I'm saying?

Inq, you seem a bit sensitive about this. Is there an example of me giving advice that was wrong? Did i espouse a doctrine that was well known to be flawed?

I don't know. My point is only that you don't, either...

Notice that I'm not giving advice on the subject...

It was also the tone. Telling people that if they don't do what you think is correct they are just "lazy"...well...

In general, do you have to work hard to get better at something?

Yes. But that's a wee bit different from "It's impossible to work TOO hard", is it not?

[GuyW]

Fitness/training... Stop swimming. It's great overall conditioning, just like running. However, fencing is a completely unnatural sport. We use weird muscles, we lunge, etc.

Think long and hard before you listen to the above advice.

IMHO, running, swimming, weight lifting, jumping, etc are all good ideas. You can even do mirror-image workouts of your standard fencing footwork.

fencing is a completely unnatural sport. We use weird muscles, we lunge, etc. Train for fencing. Stretch, jump rope (LOTS of jump rope), squats, lunge after lunge after lunge, and most of all, bouting for as long as you can.

Obviously train for fencing.

...maybe 25% general fitness workouts, 75% fencing specific workouts...(just thowing out % as a place to start your inquiry).

IMHO, these are exactly the typs of issues that fencing coaches should know and advise on....
.
.

[Lady Quindecim]

To make it short: I def. must visit a neurologist to fix it.

And thanks for all the answers so far.

Chiropractor may be a better starting point. Honestly. They study the relationships between bone, muscle and nerve from head to toe - not just whiplash cases.

[Superscribe]

Well, but a quick Google did NOT exactly reveal a plethora of "no such thing as overtraining" articles...

Are THEY sports physicians?

I'm just saying that is a matter of the individual athlete, and your personal experience is no more generalizeable than is mine.

For instance: I guarantee you that any attempt by 52-year-old me to "train" like 31-year-old Tim Morehouse would result in a slew of overuse injuries to my already-tenuous knees, right supraspinatus, and so on, and probably exhaustion into the bargain. Much less training like a 16-year-old world team member. See what I'm saying?

I don't know. My point is only that you don't, either...

Notice that I'm not giving advice on the subject...

It was also the tone. Telling people that if they don't do what you think is correct they are just "lazy"...well...

Yes. But that's a wee bit different from "It's impossible to work TOO hard", is it not?

I didn't say google would give you "no such thing as overtraining" articles. I'm curious why you quoted that, because i never said such a thing, and I fully believe in the existance of overtraining. I said that it was very difficult to overtrain. I suggested people take a look at "overtraining" in general. There is a plethora of articles about preventing, symptoms of, etc etc. Then you make your own educated decision on what overtraining is.

Furthermore, just for fun, i took the phrase you quoted, and googled that as well.

29,500 hits for "no such thing as overtraining". Oh my, it seems there are a plethora of articles, you JUST HAD TO ACTUALLY GOOGLE TO FIND OUT. I admit a some of these articles are questionable, however.

There was some other stuff that was misinterpreted and misquoted, but the above was most important to me.

[Inquartata]

II fully believe in the existance of overtraining.

Sorry if I misinterpreted you. People need to push themselves beyond their maximums as a matter or routine---is that more accurate? It still sounds like a prescription for injury to me...

I said that it was very difficult to overtrain.

OK, so I Googled "difficult to overtrain" and got a bunch of blogs by martial artists and bodybuilders and the like on the first couple of pages. As opposed to advice from sports physicians or trainers or anyone with actual training or education in physiology and so on...

In fairness, there weren't any articles by medical experts talking about the dangers of overtraining, either.

Furthermore, just for fun, i took the phrase you quoted, and googled that as well.

I didn't Google that exact phrase. I think it was just "overtraining". THAT brought up a couple of sports medicine articles by an exercise physiologist and one by an MD on the first page.

So I tried "overtraining myth" and was back to blogs by bodybuilders again.

My point is, that a lot of people, including some very fit athletes, believe that overtraining is difficult or rare does not make that the case. OTOH, if a few actual studies by scientists were to find that, or if a lot of medical people were saying it...

[TooLoftheDeviL]

I fell victim to what I would call 'over-training' resulting in two distinct injuries this season. One was my hamstring, the other being the elbow on my fencing arm.

Neither were the result of months of pushing the limit. Both were the result of pushing way past my capability way too fast and blowing out on distinct occasions.

[whtouche]

I fell victim to what I would call 'over-training' resulting in two distinct injuries this season. One was my hamstring, the other being the elbow on my fencing arm.

Neither were the result of months of pushing the limit. Both were the result of pushing way past my capability way too fast and blowing out on distinct occasions.

This is part of the reason "overtraining" is so misunderstood. People use it when what they mean is "injured themselves".