Agenda - Board of Directors Meeting, July 5th 2009

[CMiner]

I started reading this thread, got to the part about the mandatory hotel idea, pushed down my knee jerk reaction and finished reading everything. I still have two concerns.

First of all, I am all for paying a bit more for a hotel, and having limited hotel options, if this proposal really does generate $100k+ for the USFA. As long as the hotels are decent quality, aside from pricing I don't care that I won't have 'freedom of choice' in hotels, especially considering that I don't get to choose which venue the competition is held at anyway.

However:

There were about 1000 individual competitors at the NAC E this year, and more than 3000 individuals at the SNs. Does anyone know whether THS is even capable of getting enough rooms at hotels for this many people, as well as for tournament staff/refs plus fencers' friends/family?

Even assuming they do, it seems likely enough that there will be times when there simply aren't enough rooms available in approved hotels (more competitors than initially expected, more than 90% try and book a room). I'm sure there will be waivers in this instance, but what does that do to those that booked early and then see people allowed to go to other hotels and get significantly cheaper rates? Or those that can't register until near the deadline, and then have the additional wait period of the waiver process on their planning?


Secondly, as has been pointed out by many others, this proposal may very well significantly increase costs for a fencer. Cheaper hotels w/Priceline et al, and savings through hotel/flight/car packages namely. What are the chances of THS actually matching these savings? And if they don't, how many people will not attend due to increased costs? I find this question more relevant as it directly affects the potential gains of this proposal.


Barring room shortages and prohibitive cost increases, I really have no problem with this proposal. But from what I read of THS's track record, both of these problems seem likely.

[KD5MDK]

Does anyone know whether THS is even capable of getting enough rooms at hotels for this many people, as well as for tournament staff/refs plus fencers' friends/family?

Yes. One of the big differences here would be that THS can obtain room blocks that match the expected size of the tournament instead of a small fraction of that. In addition, it makes it much easier to add hotels because they have more rooms to put into blocks.

IE, under the old plan they'd book maybe 250 rooms at the Omni, 50 at the Hilton and 50 at the Hyatt. Now they'll book 800 at the Omni, 100 at the Hilton, 100 at the Hyatt, 50 at the Holiday Inn, 50 at the Best Western, 50 at the Radisson and 2 at the Four Seasons for those fencers who really like their luxury.

[KD5MDK]

My division and section officers were not consulted nor given a heads up on this plan. Probably not the best way for the USFA to build trust with the membership and the volunteers who make the whole show run.

As a Section Chair, this has nothing to do with my office in the USFA and any Section or Division officers who think it does need to reconsider their understanding of their duties.

This is a matter for your section Board Rep to receive feedback on.

Thank you. (When can we start emailing Kurt?)

You can email Kurt whenever you want. What you shouldn't do is complain if he doesn't reply while he is out of the office.

[Peach]

Wonder what they're going to do about the people who book the entire span of days through THS when the tournament is first announced, then cancel the nights they don't need? That's responsible for some of the difficulty with THS.

[pillow]

As a Section Chair, this has nothing to do with my office in the USFA and any Section or Division officers who think it does need to reconsider their understanding of their duties.

This is a matter for your section Board Rep to receive feedback on.



You can email Kurt whenever you want. What you shouldn't do is complain if he doesn't reply while he is out of the office.

Sorry, you need to reconsider what is appropriate for the USFA to do in order to rebuilt trust in the institution. To quibble about the exact legal role of a Division officer or Section officer here is simply foolish. Division officers are the closest to the membership and should at least be given the courtesy of input regarding a plan that can affect a member's ability to fence a NAC. The point is to do the right thing.

[fencingguy]

I was at the board meeting and have actually had a discussion with Kurt regarding the S&P program. Having just read through the whole thread there are a couple of issues it is important to address.

Choice: From what I understand, THS will start by issuing rooms at 5 hotels selected to meet a variety of criteria in terms of price, distance and quality. Any one who wishes to stay somewhere else can do so utilizing one of two methods.

• Waiver: This is for people who wish to stay with friends or family in the area or perhaps a small boutique hotel or B&B that is not on the original list or addressed by option 2 below
  Addition: THS will add any hotel to their list of approved hotels that a fencer brings to their attention. That means that if you find a hotel you would prefer to stay in you can submit it to THS who will attempt to negotiate a lower rate and sign them up for S&P. The list of hotels at JOs for Volleyball apparently grew from the original 5 to over 40 by the time the tournament kicked off.

Participation: There appears to be concern regarding the inability to participate if the room is not in your name or if you're crashing on the floor of a friend's hotel room. Again, this is just what I understand, but the only requirement is to list who's name the reservation is under with the approved hotel or your waiver approval. The USFA and THS aren't going to go compare this list to the hotels to look for too many people in too few rooms (unless it's REALLY obvious, think 30 people in one room), but just to check that there actually is a reservation under that name. As long as there is, you're good to go.

Pricing: The contract that THS is negotiating with the hotels is going to include the requirement that the hotel has to give the USFA/THS the lowest rate available at their hotel during the time period of the event. So, if someone finds a better deal online, the hotel is required to offer that rate to all USFA members staying at the hotel. I don't know what restrictions will be on that, ie what websites will be restricted (priceline comes to mind) if any, but it is supposed to help benefit the entire membership financially.

Finally, the USFA is aware of the problems with THS, as Brad pointed out. To ensure that THS is up to the challenge, they are planning a soft roll out during the first year. I don't know exactly what that means, but it will provide the USFA and the membership with an opportunity to evaluate the program and THS and withdraw from the contract if necessary.

I've seen a lot of very legitimate concerns in this thread, but I encourage everybody to calm down a little bit. This program has the potential to be a benefit to everyone in the organization from the national office to competitors and everyone in between and they really are trying to create a program with the best interests of the membership in mind.

[Allen Evans]

Wonder what they're going to do about the people who book the entire span of days through THS when the tournament is first announced, then cancel the nights they don't need? That's responsible for some of the difficulty with THS.

Part of the reason this happens is because the venue hotel often does not have enough rooms set aside. Clubs will often book a block of rooms early in order to make sure that they have enough for their members.

Of course, this then becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, as the block of rooms is quickly gobbled up by fencers who over book.

If THS is setting aside more rooms for fencers, this might not be the problem it's been in the past.

[pillow]

I was at the board meeting and have actually had a discussion with Kurt regarding the S&P program. Having just read through the whole thread there are a couple of issues it is important to address.

Choice: From what I understand, THS will start by issuing rooms at 5 hotels selected to meet a variety of criteria in terms of price, distance and quality. Any one who wishes to stay somewhere else can do so utilizing one of two methods.

• Waiver: This is for people who wish to stay with friends or family in the area or perhaps a small boutique hotel or B&B that is not on the original list or addressed by option 2 below
  Addition: THS will add any hotel to their list of approved hotels that a fencer brings to their attention. That means that if you find a hotel you would prefer to stay in you can submit it to THS who will attempt to negotiate a lower rate and sign them up for S&P. The list of hotels at JOs for Volleyball apparently grew from the original 5 to over 40 by the time the tournament kicked off.

Participation: There appears to be concern regarding the inability to participate if the room is not in your name or if you're crashing on the floor of a friend's hotel room. Again, this is just what I understand, but the only requirement is to list who's name the reservation is under with the approved hotel or your waiver approval. The USFA and THS aren't going to go compare this list to the hotels to look for too many people in too few rooms (unless it's REALLY obvious, think 30 people in one room), but just to check that there actually is a reservation under that name. As long as there is, you're good to go.

Pricing: The contract that THS is negotiating with the hotels is going to include the requirement that the hotel has to give the USFA/THS the lowest rate available at their hotel during the time period of the event. So, if someone finds a better deal online, the hotel is required to offer that rate to all USFA members staying at the hotel. I don't know what restrictions will be on that, ie what websites will be restricted (priceline comes to mind) if any, but it is supposed to help benefit the entire membership financially.

Finally, the USFA is aware of the problems with THS, as Brad pointed out. To ensure that THS is up to the challenge, they are planning a soft roll out during the first year. I don't know exactly what that means, but it will provide the USFA and the membership with an opportunity to evaluate the program and THS and withdraw from the contract if necessary.

I've seen a lot of very legitimate concerns in this thread, but I encourage everybody to calm down a little bit. This program has the potential to be a benefit to everyone in the organization from the national office to competitors and everyone in between and they really are trying to create a program with the best interests of the membership in mind.

There are so many potential technical, financial, and IT problems with your description as above, I don't even know where to begin. So I'll let others do it for me.

[fencingguy]

There are so many potential technical, financial, and IT problems with your description as above, I don't even know where to begin. So I'll let others do it for me.

Please understand that my comment above is by no means meant to be a complete description of the program, but simply a sharing of information not yet voiced in the thread that is relevant to specific concerns.

[occasionalfencer]

Finally, the USFA is aware of the problems with THS, as Brad pointed out. To ensure that THS is up to the challenge, they are planning a soft roll out during the first year. I don't know exactly what that means, but it will provide the USFA and the membership with an opportunity to evaluate the program and THS and withdraw from the contract if necessary.

I've seen a lot of very legitimate concerns in this thread, but I encourage everybody to calm down a little bit. This program has the potential to be a benefit to everyone in the organization from the national office to competitors and everyone in between and they really are trying to create a program with the best interests of the membership in mind.

There are so many potential technical, financial, and IT problems with your description as above, I don't even know where to begin. So I'll let others do it for me.

Okay I will try to start, with the understanding that it is only a start. I encourage others to continue.

"The USFA is aware of the problems with THS" and is going ahead anyway? The first year will be a "soft roll out" but I don't know what that means? Well, one thing it seems to mean is that already they are planning a multi-year contract with a company known to have significant problems in working for fencers, and leave not only our housing, but also our registration for events at the mercy of this company. Would it be reasonable (in a sane world) to ask that THS prove that it can function at the lower level BEFORE giving it a greater responsibility?

[dekko]

Why would Kurt pay attention to us, he has no reason to, he's untouchable, he's not elected.

As for this starting this coming season(?), I guess this will greatly increase attendence at ROCs as THS isn't used or required for those.

[K O'N]

Please understand that my comment above is by no means meant to be a complete description of the program, but simply a sharing of information not yet voiced in the thread that is relevant to specific concerns.

I appreciate your comment.

Complicated financial arrangements where everybody makes money but no one is paying any more are perhaps less trusted than they were two years ago, eh? So let's look at this a bit, in the hopes of unraveling what's going on.

If THS wants less early overbooking and then canceling, and I'm sure they do, they should lean on the USFA to make the event schedules clear very early. I shouldn't have to reserve a room for ten days because I don't know when I'm fencing. That's an internal USFA problem, and they can fix that, and then THS makes more money and everyone is happy. That's money for free, that's fine, if the USFA can do it.

It's very hard for me to see how "My college roommate/sister/babymama/whatever lives two miles from the venue, I'm staying with her" won't work as a generic get out of jail free card. How could anyone check up on that sort of thing on any scale? So you say you have a place to stay and you find a cheap hotel, just like you do now. There's one more bit of paper to fill out and fax in, so what? It's a wash from the POV of the cheap college aged fencer, or the bargain hunting fencing mom. If the above doesn't work when it's not true it won't work when it is true, and the whole thing is too draconian to stand up for long, there would be riots.

So won't everyone do that? Likely no, lots of affluent fencers or fencing parents value staying at the venue. This will likely bend more such parents and fencers to stay at the venue or in a THS hotel, it's the default setting and it's easy. So that's money from people who don't care enough to avoid spending it, I guess that's ok too.

So it could be ok. Predictable failure modes are:

*waivers don't work right, someone gets bumped who shouldn't have

*waivers are harder to get than we predict, and there are riots in the streets

*event schedules not posted well in advance, so THS is overbooked and then canceled when the event schedules come out.

*it gets more expensive and people travel less. This whole thing sort of relies on the great unwashed masses just paying more because there are barriers to doing otherwise, but that could also lead to lower participation. People just stay home, since they think of a NAC costing 2.2 times what it does now, say.

*it's a rule, right? A real, actual rule? Huh. What if I'm in a DE with someone I know lied on a THS waiver form? Can I protest? Can I call a bout committee and say, "He does not either have a sister who lives here, HE'S AN ONLY CHILD! He stayed at the MOTEL 6!" <cue ominous music>. Seriously, fencers play the rules. This is a rule. Therefore, fencers will play it.

So I don't know. Just the IT part of this alone is worrisome. Transferring a list of the people with waivers from one USFA computer to the another shouldn't be that hard, but maybe it will be. We all faxed our entries in for the recent SNs, remember? Faxed? In 2009? Really? Faxed? There are still no pool results or DE tables up from SN that I know of anywhere, the stardangle rollout is pushed back so god only knows when we'll get some crippled ass half working version of what askfred does brilliantly and has done for several years, just in general the USFA doesn't have a stellar record in any sort of IT endeavor I've ever seen, even one so simple as pointing a finger and grunting "you" at the provider who is already doing what you want to hire him to do. Asking people to trust that this rather IT intensive project will work just fine is a bit of a stretch.

K O'N

[hello?]

*it's a rule, right? A real, actual rule? Huh. What if I'm in a DE with someone I know lied on a THS waiver form? Can I protest? Can I call a bout committee and say, "He does not either have a sister who lives here, HE'S AN ONLY CHILD! He stayed at the MOTEL 6!" <cue ominous music>. Seriously, fencers play the rules. This is a rule. Therefore, fencers will play it.



K O'N

This is just too funny.

[occasionalfencer]

I appreciate your comment.

Complicated financial arrangements where everybody makes money but no one is paying any more are perhaps less trusted than they were two years ago, eh? So let's look at this a bit, in the hopes of unraveling what's going on.


So it could be ok. Predictable failure modes are:

*waivers don't work right, someone gets bumped who shouldn't have

*waivers are harder to get than we predict, and there are riots in the streets


K O'N

Here's another possible/predictable having to do with waivers: In order to process all the waivers in a timely and efficient manner, the USFA has to hire more staff, thus totally negating the supposed savings from the whole project anyway.

[Inquartata]

Wow.

Wow...

I don't believe that it's intended to be done secretly. That said, enough information has not yet been released, likely in large part because it isn't readily available and finalized yet.

That's probably what's worrying a lot of people: The likelihood that by the time the membership is notified it WILL have been finalized, as in contracts signed and deal done, or so close to done that no one will want to step in front of the train. That it will be all but a fait accompli.

Wonder what they're going to do about the people who book the entire span of days through THS when the tournament is first announced, then cancel the nights they don't need? That's responsible for some of the difficulty with THS.

I think this is rather a consequence of the way things work, rather than a contributing cause.

That is, people do this because by the time the schedules are released attempts to book through THS are met with "hotel is full" notices. They must then scramble to make other arrangements. Easier to book a whole block early and then cancel unneeded nights...

Leaving aside the affronts of being forced to do something---and I share the feelings of the majority who have posted on this idea---I will accept it IF when I go to THS to make a reservation I can actually do so, rather than seeing "hotel full" six months before the events.

By the way...is this going to apply if one does NOT use the online registration but mails in ones entry the old-fashioned way? Or is online registration going to be made mandatory?

[hello?]

That's probably what's worrying a lot of people: The likelihood that by the time the membership is notified it WILL have been finalized, as in contracts signed and deal done, or so close to done that no one will want to step in front of the train. That it will be all but a fait accompli.

I THINK that this has to be a done deal -- at least for the 'soft-start' that's been spoken about. Potential savings have been quoted for NAC A. So, presumably, THS is negotiating hotels for THIS season under the assumption that this deal (fully enforced, partially enforced, whatever) is going through.

Since I first heard about it, some of my initial fears have indeed been unofficially addressed here (see? the forums can be used for more than just complaining). Ie. the post-college kid who usually crashes at someone else's room simply needs to use the name of a club mate with a reservation, say he is staying in that room, and get a waiver; there will be more types of hotels to select from.....However, I still seriously question THS' ability to avoid technical errors that could erroneously prevent someone from fencing and I still don't see how THS can compete with hotel/flight/car packages. (I don't use those but know many, many people who do.) It WOULD be nice to see the deal that THS has made with the USFA (like I said, I am sure there's a deal in place already -- NAC A is around the corner, so to speak). So far, very little (0%?) information on this has been from official sources...

[Inquartata]

The hassle potential of that waiver business worries me, too. One more hoop through which we must jump, one more thing to forget to do at a crucial time, one more thing which we will not be able to get anyone to handle because that person is out of town, sick, swamped with work, etc.

I have a bad feeling about this.

[fdad]

I THINK that this has to be a done deal -- at least for the 'soft-start' that's been spoken about. Potential savings have been quoted for NAC A. So, presumably, THS is negotiating hotels for THIS season under the assumption that this deal (fully enforced, partially enforced, whatever) is going through.

Since I first heard about it, some of my initial fears have indeed been unofficially addressed here (see? the forums can be used for more than just complaining). Ie. the post-college kid who usually crashes at someone else's room simply needs to use the name of a club mate with a reservation, say he is staying in that room, and get a waiver; there will be more types of hotels to select from.....However, I still seriously question THS' ability to avoid technical errors that could erroneously prevent someone from fencing and I still don't see how THS can compete with hotel/flight/car packages. (I don't use those but know many, many people who do.) It WOULD be nice to see the deal that THS has made with the USFA (like I said, I am sure there's a deal in place already -- NAC A is around the corner, so to speak). So far, very little (0%?) information on this has been from official sources...

I too think its close to done. Is it a coincidence that a few weeks before the registration deadline for NAC A there is no way to register? I suspect its because the system to link registration with hotel is being worked out and they don't want anyone registering before they can make hotel a co-requisite.

[occasionalfencer]

I too think its close to done. Is it a coincidence that a few weeks before the registration deadline for NAC A there is no way to register? I suspect its because the system to link registration with hotel is being worked out and they don't want anyone registering before they can make hotel a co-requisite.

Is it a coincidence that the first thing this program tries to do doesn't work in a timely manner?

[dekko]

Is it a coincidence that the first thing this program tries to do doesn't work in a timely manner?

I thought someone said there was a system that was used this past year(for all except nationals)....or did they lie?

Also for those who think this was 'leaked' pay closer attention to what is posted, you might realize it wasn't.