Agenda - Board of Directors Meeting, July 5th 2009

[dekko]

Saving money on hotels is fine, helping US Fencing get some extra cash would normally be ok if it were not for the fact that it would appear that fencers who attend national event would be forced to stay, apparently, THS makes them and not where they want. Also, Brad, time to drop the other shoe. Normally I wouldn't have an issue with this, good idea on the surface, but if it's true THS would cause a fencer registration to be cancelled because they don't stay in the 'right hotel' that is the big problem. If this plan doesn't involve the registration be cancelled for fencing due to lodging arrangements then fine, if cancellation can occur, then the BOD/officers/EC/etc should brace for impact as this will cost more than it will make, lawsuits and all. People are funny that way when their registration gets cancelled for no good reason, they get letigious.

Good luck.

[dberke]

Saving money on hotels is fine, helping US Fencing get some extra cash would normally be ok if it were not for the fact that it would appear that fencers who attend national event would be forced to stay, apparently, THS makes them and not where they want. Also, Brad, time to drop the other shoe. Normally I wouldn't have an issue with this, good idea on the surface, but if it's true THS would cause a fencer registration to be cancelled because they don't stay in the 'right hotel' that is the big problem. If this plan doesn't involve the registration be cancelled for fencing due to lodging arrangements then fine, if cancellation can occur, then the BOD/officers/EC/etc should brace for impact as this will cost more than it will make, lawsuits and all. People are funny that way when their registration gets cancelled for no good reason, they get letigious.

Good luck.

Can you cite any official USFA announcement that the bolded statement above is true? I scoured the thread and found no such claim (in fact, there is precious little "official" information beyond what Brad has discussed).

Again, stop panicking and wait for something official to be released. Or email Kurt and let him know your thoughts on the subject.

Dan

[bigdawg2121]

Ehhh, Dan, as much as I'll be the first to admit that Dekko occasionally draws some hasty conclusions if the plan works as Brad has laid it out then what he's saying seems more than reasonable. How else would you ensure that every athlete stays in THS housing? In fact I'd go as far as to say that the burden is on the USFA to show that what Dekko has said is NOT how the setup will work and to provide basic answers to a variety of questions such as:

How do you avoid the fact that what THS considers comparable or waiver worthy might not mesh with what the individual wanted?

What is the advantage to the USFA from this arrangement? Hooray for a 20 dollar savings that arises from bigger blocks but does the benefit outweigh the potential pain in the ass? Are we just saving on staff housing? Do we get any kickback from bookings? Who has final say on the status/validity of a waiver? Is there a waiver for, "seriously, I'm a fencer and I'm just crash on different friends' floors for 4 nights?"

[oiuyt]

Also, Brad, time to drop the other shoe. Normally I wouldn't have an issue with this, good idea on the surface, but if it's true THS would cause a fencer registration to be cancelled because they don't stay in the 'right hotel' that is the big problem.

Thought I'd covered that in my initial post.

As part of the program, all participating athletes will be required to either book at an official hotel through THS or receive a waiver.

The heart of the program's functioning is that nearly all participating athletes (all those without waivers for one of the various justifications (which, in turn, are still being determined)) would be required to book through the designated channel at one of the designated properties.

Note for those planning to email Kurt... I believe he's out of the office for the next couple of days and likely won't see anything you send until Monday.

-B

[Mr.MightyMouse]

Folks,

Before everyone gets their panties all tied up in knots


Dan
BoD Member and frequent user of Priceline.com for hotels - I have the same desires you have for cheap hotel rates!

Them are boxers.
I take my hat off in awe of your astuteness in regards to the Hotel Booking skills, and presence on the BOARD, while eagerly anticipating an explanation of how your Priceline package deals will dovetail into the new THS "Play, Pay and Oy Vey" plan, as well as, a detail on your expense of the Gaylord extrvaganza.

[pillow]

Thought I'd covered that in my initial post.



The heart of the program's functioning is that nearly all participating athletes (all those without waivers for one of the various justifications (which, in turn, are still being determined)) would be required to book through the designated channel at one of the designated properties.

Note for those planning to email Kurt... I believe he's out of the office for the next couple of days and likely won't see anything you send until Monday.

-B

Brad and Dan,

I believe I have a better idea. Kurt is the person who should use his position as ED to email the MEMBERSHIP; he should send an email blast or use the USFA Homepage for an announcement explaining this proposal and his rationale for saving the USFA money. He should set an example of good leadership by explaining the program and then ask us for comments. Since he may not read f.net as was posted above, I'm sure either of you could let him know about this thread before more people get upset for possibly invalid reasons.

[dberke]

Ehhh, Dan, as much as I'll be the first to admit that Dekko occasionally draws some hasty conclusions if the plan works as Brad has laid it out then what he's saying seems more than reasonable. How else would you ensure that every athlete stays in THS housing? In fact I'd go as far as to say that the burden is on the USFA to show that what Dekko has said is NOT how the setup will work and to provide basic answers to a variety of questions such as:

I agree, the USFA needs to show how the program will work. They have not yet done anything along those lines - there has been no official announcement beyond what Kurt said at the BoD meeting, which essentially boils down to "we're working on the details of this program".

So, perhaps we should give the USFA some time to figure how how the program will work and actually announce it before we start drawing conclusions and talking about lawyers and lawsuits...

How do you avoid the fact that what THS considers comparable or waiver worthy might not mesh with what the individual wanted?

I believe that is up to the USFA to decide, and Brad specifically said that the USFA is still deciding how the waivers will work.

What is the advantage to the USFA from this arrangement? Hooray for a 20 dollar savings that arises from bigger blocks but does the benefit outweigh the potential pain in the ass? Are we just saving on staff housing? Do we get any kickback from bookings? Who has final say on the status/validity of a waiver? Is there a waiver for, "seriously, I'm a fencer and I'm just crash on different friends' floors for 4 nights?"

The USFA benefits in a number of ways:
- Cheaper rates to house tournament staff (referees, armorers, etc.)
- More rooms rented means cheaper, if not free, venue rental
- More kickbacks to the USFA (USFA gets a percentage of room rental $)
- More likely to host events in more "desirable" cities

The presentation I saw on this showed a cost savings of nearly $120,000 for the USFA over the course of a season. Given our current finances, that's a pretty significant amount.

Also, the last point is worth explaining. One reason the USFA doesn't put events in cities that people consider more desirable is because under the current program, the USFA can't guarantee the number of rooms they will fill. So they tell a city they can fill say 1000 rooms - and if the USFA only fills 800, the hotels lose out on renting those 200 rooms. Under this program, the USFA can guarantee the number of rooms they will fill (they estimate 90% of the attendees would use the program) so suddenly the USFA can book a much larger block with more accuracy as to how many rooms they'll need (and they will get filled.) That gives us more buying power, and makes more desirable cities more likely to negotiate the prices into our affordable range.

Dan

[teacup]

Two reasons, among others, why fewer rooms than anticipated are booked with THS. One reason is the fault of THS and one the fault of the USFA.

1. THS doesn't match lowest advertised prices at the same hotels offered.
2. The USFA doesn't post closed of check in times until after THS has already returned its block of rooms. Therefore people cancel rooms late or people are too late to book using the THS USFA block. (And people are left scrabbling for rooms.)

[dberke]

I take my hat off in awe of your astuteness in regards to the Hotel Booking skills, and presence on the BOARD, while eagerly anticipating an explanation of how your Priceline package deals will dovetail into the new THS "Play, Pay and Oy Vey" plan, as well as, a detail on your expense of the Gaylord extrvaganza.

I personally am hoping that the program will allow people to opt out for pretty much any reason - including "I can get a better package deal on Priceline".

Since you asked... my 6 days/5 nights at Summer Nationals cost me:
$260 - Roundtrip to DFW from Travelocity, bought when flight prices dropped during Swine Flu hysteria
$300 - 5 nights at the Hyatt (4-star) from Priceline
$280 - 5 day midize car rental from Priceline
Grand total = $840
Of course this doesn't count food, drinks, entry fees, or the tons of money I spent on equipment. Food was much cheaper, though, since I only ate at the Gaylord once while I was there.

This was all out of my pocket, and will only be offset by the $250 or so I earned from reffing for three days. And of course I won't see that money for a while.

Brad and Dan,

I believe I have a better idea. Kurt is the person who should use his position as ED to email the MEMBERSHIP; he should send an email blast or use the USFA Homepage for an announcement explaining this proposal and his rationale for saving the USFA money. He should set an example of good leadership by explaining the program and then ask us for comments. Since he may not read f.net as was posted above, I'm sure either of you could let him know about this thread before more people get upset for possibly invalid reasons.

I agree completely, and I expect he will do that when they are closer to having a final proposal to share. The only reason why anyone knows about this now (and that this conversation even exists) is that he gave the Board of Directors a preview of the program to let us know what they are working on at the National Office.

Dan

[dberke]

Two reasons, among others, why fewer rooms than anticipated are booked with THS. One reason is the fault of THS and one the fault of the USFA.

1. THS doesn't match lowest advertised prices at the same hotels offered.
2. The USFA doesn't post closed of check in times until after THS has already returned its block of rooms. Therefore people cancel rooms late or people are too late to book using the THS USFA block. (And people are left scrabbling for rooms.)

1. This has been a problem, and I believe they are doing something about that. Of course, we will see if that actually happens - but I think they will now be contractually obligated to match the lower prices.

2. Close of check-in times isn't relevant - only the day schedule is. The USFA still has the "don't fly out on the day of your event" guideline and I don't expect that to change. If you choose to take the risk and not stay the extra night, that is your choice.

That said, the USFA is moving the registration deadline for events next season out to EIGHT weeks prior to the event rather than the current four. That will enable them to post event times earlier.

FYI, the day schedule (no times) for the October NAC is Des Moines is already posted on the USFA website. And note that the entry deadline is frighteningly soon: August 10th!

Dan

[teacup]

THS doesn't offer suites. At the NAC A in Columbus, THS didn't offer the Hampton Suites or the Drury Lane suites hotels. For us, it was less expensive to stay in a two bedroom suite chaperoning a couple of fencers than to stay in two rooms at the THS host hotel. Not only was the per night cost cheaper but breakfast was included and the hotel was across the street from the venue.

Would waivers be given to those who want suites?

Forcing people to book through THS not only sounds too complicated but will just anger and annoy people. If the USFA wants people to book through this service, and therefore earn more revenue, then THS should offer the best price, comparative cancellation policies, in a timely fashion with the best options of rooms and suites. Then people will gladly use them. Otherwise, people will and should be able to go wherever it is best for them and their budget.

[misha]

I agree, the USFA needs to show how the program will work. They have not yet done anything along those lines - there has been no official announcement beyond what Kurt said at the BoD meeting, which essentially boils down to "we're working on the details of this program".

So, perhaps we should give the USFA some time to figure how how the program will work and actually announce it before we start drawing conclusions and talking about lawyers and lawsuits...

Dan

Wrong. If we wait for the official announcement it will read something like that:

"USFA have signed 5 year contract with THS and there is no way
to revert it without $10 mil penalty"
so membership you can suck it up again or go fence somewhere else

.

[KD5MDK]

One thing that some people seem unclear on is that it would be the USFA issuing the waivers, not THS. If THS could not match a price, I believe that was given as a reason the USFA would accept for a waiver. However, Priceline etc bids where you don't know where you are staying wouldn't be considered (and aren't under all incentive and promotional programs that I'm aware of, barring mistakes).

[teacup]

1. This has been a problem, and I believe they are doing something about that. Of course, we will see if that actually happens - but I think they will now be contractually obligated to match the lower prices.

Hopefully, but will they match the cancellation policies of booking elsewhere, will they offer suites, and will they offer one night minimums?

2. Close of check-in times isn't relevant - only the day schedule is. The USFA still has the "don't fly out on the day of your event" guideline and I don't expect that to change. If you choose to take the risk and not stay the extra night, that is your choice.

This is relevant. Not everyone has the luxury of staying an extra hotel night and missed school/work day just because the USFA advises them not to do so. Yes, it is a fencer's choice. The money that is saved event after event in hotels, meals, etc. will easily pay for that one flight missed. (Especially if Southwest is used. Two returns are purchased in advance and the credit used for later.)

And not only fencers go to events. If an event doesn't start until noon and the location is only an hour or two flight away, a coach can fly in on an early morning flight thus saving in per diem, hotel fees and other coaching fees.

If an event starts at 8:00, it is not unreasonable to fly out on a 9:00 PM flight. No matter what the USFA encourages people to do, people do and will fly out the same day they compete in order to save money. Over the years, thousands of dollars can be saved by flying out the same day. In an ideal world everyone would fly home the next day, but unfortunately most of us must deal with the realities of life.

(Maybe a poll should be started on how many fencers fly home the night of their event.)

You can not believe me if you want, but ask THS how many rooms are cancelled after close of check in times are posted.

That said, the USFA is moving the registration deadline for events next season out to EIGHT weeks prior to the event rather than the current four. That will enable them to post event times earlier.

This is an excellent step in the right direction. Hopefully, it will also mean close of check in times will be posted sooner.

[qatet]

I've been out of this fencing racket for a while now (I haven't even been reading f.net, which I'm sure you all find utterly absurd), so I may be wrong about this, but it seems to me that another huge problem here is that fencers have built up a serious distrust of THS what with the various problems they've caused over the course of the USFA's relationship with them. I seem to remember stories about lost reservations, for instance.

So the question out of this would be: Does using THS's S&P product guarantee fencers a better quality of service? Does THS employ the dullest monkeys it can find in the service that we currently use, in the hopes of driving its clients to the S&P service, where they presumably make more money thanks to economies of scale?

I booked hotels for my old club and absolutely never considered using THS's services. Why bring all of my students and their parents all the way across the country and then tell them that some monkey messed up and nobody has a room?

That said, I do second the concern about hotels with suites. As a coach traveling with a team it was much better to stay in a place with suites where I could supervise a whole slew of kids... and have a kitchen for cheap meals to boot!

[Mr.MightyMouse]

I personally am hoping that the program will allow people to opt out for pretty much any reason - including "I can get a better package deal on Priceline".

Since you asked... my 6 days/5 nights at Summer Nationals cost me:
$260 - Roundtrip to DFW from Travelocity, bought when flight prices dropped during Swine Flu hysteria
$300 - 5 nights at the Hyatt (4-star) from Priceline
$280 - 5 day midize car rental from Priceline
Grand total = $840
Of course this doesn't count food, drinks, entry fees, or the tons of money I spent on equipment. Food was much cheaper, though, since I only ate at the Gaylord once while I was there.

Dan

You did well young Jedi.
Mine was $300 round trip on United which sucked eggs bigtime.
$40 bag check-in
$650 10 nights at Gaylord

so $990 for 11 days,
not counting food - which was a tad pricey - Fish + Chips - subbing salad for fries $19 before tip, tax and drinks at the Texan Station, tried to beg , trade or buy my way off the pale nightly.

[misha]

Looks like the success, length and coverage of Volleyball program was a little bit overstated...

They used it in 2009 for the first time and only for JO:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...Be3MNWSJM7R7ng
(PDF warning)

Price results analysis:
https://www.ovr.org/national/StayAnd...Comparison.pdf
(another PDF warning)


An opinion of participants
http://www.usavolleyball.org/message_board/topic/146


.

[teacup]

FYI, I did ask THS and the USFA about suites and THS will not and does not offer them.

As to the comparison with volleyball, volleyball players travel as a team, fencers do not.

[pillow]

1. This has been a problem, and I believe they are doing something about that. Of course, we will see if that actually happens - but I think they will now be contractually obligated to match the lower prices.

2. Close of check-in times isn't relevant - only the day schedule is. The USFA still has the "don't fly out on the day of your event" guideline and I don't expect that to change. If you choose to take the risk and not stay the extra night, that is your choice.

That said, the USFA is moving the registration deadline for events next season out to EIGHT weeks prior to the event rather than the current four. That will enable them to post event times earlier.

FYI, the day schedule (no times) for the October NAC is Des Moines is already posted on the USFA website. And note that the entry deadline is frighteningly soon: August 10th!

Dan

Regarding the DEADLINE for NAC A, I would like to point out that the USFA webpage for National Competitions DOES NOT have the application for the 2009-2010 NACs located at http://www.usfencing.org/event/event/315,
so I think that is even more frightening than the above quote about the EIGHT week deadline. Perhaps the application form is not on the page dedicated to the 2009-2010 schedule?

[telkanuru]

Is there a waiver for, "seriously, I'm a fencer and I'm just crash on different friends' floors for 4 nights?"

This is kind of important as it directly affects attendance in the 18-24 age category...