For the December 2008 NAC, the Broadmoor Hotel booked through THS had a two night minimum.
In the future if a fencer wants to fly home the same night as their event though advised not to do so by the USFA, therefore only needing one night, if they are forced to book at a THS hotel with a two night minimum would they would have to pay for two nights or would they be granted a waiver?
In a perfect world everyone would fly out the next day, but even referees start flying home on the last day of competitions.
(Due to double stripping and the rush to be finished maybe competitors on the last day of competitions should receive a discount on their entry fees.)
Teacup makes a very interesting point. Many hotels have a minimum stay requirement for conventions. They don't like room churn, and frankly it is difficult for many hotels to sell 1/2 a weekend. It will be interesting to see if there is a minimum stay requirement in the Stay and Pay program.
While I understand why the administration decided not to post start times early, I also believe that it is a disservice to the membership. Why? Because, as several people have pointed out, there is no reason to book an extra evening if you're event registration closes at 8-9am (at least for Div 1 events and most sabre events).
I do believe that this board decision, made during the February meeting, was a disservice to the membership as it fails to take into the stress on school/jobs that events put on members. Of course, it kinda ties their hands, but it also reduces the costs to many competitors substantially - well worth the trade.
That is simply your choice and as an administrator of your club if that is the best value for your club and it's members, Great! Go for it.
I would strongly disagree with your conclusion that you can attend 3 Rocs for the cost, travel, time in relation to 1 NAC in Des Monies. This is an exaggeration. I have done the cost for my fencers as well and you are no where in the ball park, and if those reading this thread understand you just stated you could buy travel, lodging, entries and other related expenses to three ROC's for three of your fencers and still be ahead or only a little over the cost of one NAC, your wrong. I have been doing this type of cost analysis for nearly 30 years and I challenge you to produce those numbers to such a conclusion. I believe those reading the thread would love to be educated on this deal.
Mark Stasinos
Vice-President
US Fencing Association
Don't forget Mark, I mentioned an important point - the costs associated with missing a day of work. There's no need to have to worry about that with the three ROC's I listed, whereas the event in Des Moines would require two days off of work for the person I was modeling the calculations for.
Bottom line, with flight, four nights in the venue hotel, the entry fee for two events, and food calculated at the IRS perdiem rate for that city, plus the opportunity costs associated with missing two days of work, its between $1600-$1650 to attend the NAC in Des Moines. Probably come down on that a bit after doing some searching (but its going to be limited if in the future we're required to stay at the venue hotel).
Using a very simple flight+hotel+car package finder, again using the IRS rates and adding in the entry fees that the events were charging last year (easily available on askFRED), and oh, not having to factor in the opportunity costs of missing work, then we're looking at between $600-$675 per event. Probably come down on that a bit after doing some searching. Maybe even significantly more, depending upon event schedules (possibly only requiring a single night in the hotel, but that might be balanced out with an increased airfare - hard to say at this point).
Why? Well, it comes down to two big factors - the costs associated with missing two days of work and the extra hotel night. Why two days and the extra hotel night? Because, well, you kinda have to factor that in with an NAC, whereas you don't with a ROC. Plain and simple. (Note added: Another member of our traveling team would not have the $ opportunity costs associated with missing work, but would need to either have a parent along who WOULD).
Oh, and airfare to Des Moines is frakking expensive...
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Last edited by oso97; 07-21-2009 at 04:09 AM..
Reason: Note added
Don't forget Mark, I mentioned an important point - the costs associated with missing a day of work. There's no need to have to worry about that with the three ROC's I listed, whereas the event in Des Moines would require two days off of work for the person I was modeling the calculations for.
Bottom line, with flight, four nights in the venue hotel, the entry fee for two events, and food calculated at the IRS perdiem rate for that city, plus the opportunity costs associated with missing two days of work, its between $1600-$1650 to attend the NAC in Des Moines. Probably come down on that a bit after doing some searching (but its going to be limited if in the future we're required to stay at the venue hotel).
Using a very simple flight+hotel+car package finder, again using the IRS rates and adding in the entry fees that the events were charging last year (easily available on askFRED), and oh, not having to factor in the opportunity costs of missing work, then we're looking at between $600-$675 per event. Probably come down on that a bit after doing some searching. Maybe even significantly more, depending upon event schedules (possibly only requiring a single night in the hotel, but that might be balanced out with an increased airfare - hard to say at this point).
Why? Well, it comes down to two big factors - the costs associated with missing two days of work and the extra hotel night. Why two days and the extra hotel night? Because, well, you kinda have to factor that in with an NAC, whereas you don't with a ROC. Plain and simple. (Note added: Another member of our traveling team would not have the $ opportunity costs associated with missing work, but would need to either have a parent along who WOULD).
Oh, and airfare to Des Moines is frakking expensive...
That is simply your choice and as an administrator of your club if that is the best value for your club and it's members, Great! Go for it.
I would strongly disagree with your conclusion that you can attend 3 Rocs for the cost, travel, time in relation to 1 NAC in Des Monies. This is an exaggeration. I have done the cost for my fencers as well and you are no where in the ball park, and if those reading this thread understand you just stated you could buy travel, lodging, entries and other related expenses to three ROC's for three of your fencers and still be ahead or only a little over the cost of one NAC, your wrong. I have been doing this type of cost analysis for nearly 30 years and I challenge you to produce those numbers to such a conclusion. I believe those reading the thread would love to be educated on this deal.
Mark Stasinos
Vice-President
US Fencing Association
Actually, at this point, "those reading the thread would love to be educated on" the THS/USFA deal...from an official source?....That, apparently, seems to be the real challenge.
Actually, at this point, "those reading the thread would love to be educated on" the THS/USFA deal...from an official source?....That, apparently, seems to be the real challenge.
That is simply your choice and as an administrator of your club if that is the best value for your club and it's members, Great! Go for it.
That is the point of my question. I am currently able to decide for myself where and how long to stay. I have had the experience of having my kid do well enough to force me to rebook an extra hotel night and new flights and miss a day of school - that decision was under my control and I made it with complete knowledge that it might (and did) cost me more. What new limits will S&P put on what used to be my choice?
Cost is only one factor. The Fall NACs conflict with SAT testing dates, if lucky enough to have a free Saturday morning a NAC attendee might want to take the SAT in the NAC town, and stay near the testing site rather than the venue. An attendee might have family/friends in a nearby suburb and want to stay with/near them. There could be nearby colleges/attractions to visit. If I get in late and leave early, then airport hotels are attractive, etc.
If you are forcing me to stay at a particular hotel in order to compete, how many nights am I forced to stay? Is it a function of the number of fencing days? Can one night at a THS hotel fulfill my obligation for a week spent at SN fencing in 5 events?
Actually, at this point, "those reading the thread would love to be educated on" the THS/USFA deal...from an official source?....That, apparently, seems to be the real challenge.
Based on a conversation I had with Kurt yesterday, I expect there to be information on the US Fencing website later today.
-B
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Based on a conversation I had with Kurt yesterday, I expect there to be information on the US Fencing website later today.
-B
How fortunate you had a conversation with Kurt yesterday. Do you anticipate that the information on the USFA site will address all the concerns on f.net and make the problem go away, or will it just confirm the membership's anxiety regarding the apparent lack of choice and possible increased expense that the THS plan seems to create? Thanks again Brad for your help in this matter.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdstasinos
...I would strongly disagree with your conclusion that you can attend 3 Rocs for the cost, travel, time in relation to 1 NAC in Des Monies. This is an exaggeration. I have done the cost for my fencers as well and you are no where in the ball park,
Mark Stasinos
Vice-President
US Fencing Association
Did they rename it in honor of the NAC, since there are no nonstops to it from the West Coast?
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Don't forget Mark, I mentioned an important point - the costs associated with missing a day of work. There's no need to have to worry about that with the three ROC's I listed, whereas the event in Des Moines would require two days off of work for the person I was modeling the calculations for.
Bottom line, with flight, four nights in the venue hotel, the entry fee for two events, and food calculated at the IRS perdiem rate for that city, plus the opportunity costs associated with missing two days of work, its between $1600-$1650 to attend the NAC in Des Moines. Probably come down on that a bit after doing some searching (but its going to be limited if in the future we're required to stay at the venue hotel).
Using a very simple flight+hotel+car package finder, again using the IRS rates and adding in the entry fees that the events were charging last year (easily available on askFRED), and oh, not having to factor in the opportunity costs of missing work, then we're looking at between $600-$675 per event. Probably come down on that a bit after doing some searching. Maybe even significantly more, depending upon event schedules (possibly only requiring a single night in the hotel, but that might be balanced out with an increased airfare - hard to say at this point).
Why? Well, it comes down to two big factors - the costs associated with missing two days of work and the extra hotel night. Why two days and the extra hotel night? Because, well, you kinda have to factor that in with an NAC, whereas you don't with a ROC. Plain and simple. (Note added: Another member of our traveling team would not have the $ opportunity costs associated with missing work, but would need to either have a parent along who WOULD).
Oh, and airfare to Des Moines is frakking expensive...
Part of the problem with what you state here is that you miss no work days by going to the ROC. Well, that is not exactly true. Depending on where you live, it can still impact your work day. Example, I travel to the Duel in the Desert and my event is on Saturday morning I must leave from the east coast sometime Friday which would reflect on missing work to attend the event.
Depending on what you choose to do as an administrator for your club, as I stated earlier, attending the NAC or the ROC is a personal choice and if you feel the ROC and it's schedule will better serve you and your clubs needs, the attend the ROC's.
Mark Stasinos
Vice-President
US Fencing Association
Part of the problem with what you state here is that you miss no work days by going to the ROC. Well, that is not exactly true. Depending on where you live, it can still impact your work day. Example, I travel to the Duel in the Desert and my event is on Saturday morning I must leave from the east coast sometime Friday which would reflect on missing work to attend the event.
Depending on what you choose to do as an administrator for your club, as I stated earlier, attending the NAC or the ROC is a personal choice and if you feel the ROC and it's schedule will better serve you and your clubs needs, the attend the ROC's.
Mark Stasinos
Vice-President
US Fencing Association
So do you actually have any information on the stay and play program?
After all it might be helpful to just let people know a few details. It is rather difficult for people to make informed decisions when there is so little information.
As I recall communication was a central theme during the election.
So do you actually have any information on the stay and play program?
After all it might be helpful to just let people know a few details. It is rather difficult for people to make informed decisions when there is so little information.
As I recall communication was a central theme during the election.
We can at least learn some from the US Volleyball web site (although they don't talk about standards for waivers, etc.).
Well that sounds fabulous. Every one wins and the free money flows to the governing body. Here I was thinking only the Fed could pull of the trick of making money appear out of thin air.
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