Agenda - Board of Directors Meeting, July 5th 2009

[flechewounds]

If everyone hates this thing so much, the easy thing to do would be to simply boycott THS during NAC A and NAC B. I don't think that near-venue hotels are difficult to find in either Des Moines or Kansas City, and a boycott would send a clear signal that the membership doesn't want this.

Boycotts are interesting, but they could hurt the USFA when it can least afford it. However, I suppose that they are a viable option if the people in charge aren't listening.

As for the NAC A/B timeframe, I don't suppose that they can foist it upon us as mandatory that quickly as many of us have likely got our lodging plans together already. It isn't too far ahead to do that, particularly if locking in a cheap rate (and note that they weren't available on THS late last week).

[occasionalfencer]

If everyone hates this thing so much, the easy thing to do would be to simply boycott THS during NAC A and NAC B. I don't think that near-venue hotels are difficult to find in either Des Moines or Kansas City, and a boycott would send a clear signal that the membership doesn't want this.

Any suggestions on how to let people know? I think one of the fiendishly clever things about starting this with a cadet/youth NAC is that many of the people attending will be going to their first NAC, with parents who don't want to do anything to mess up their child's sport, and don't really know how things are done. They will just accept this burden.

[FreedomAtRisk]

Any suggestions on how to let people know? I think one of the fiendishly clever things about starting this with a cadet/youth NAC is that many of the people attending will be going to their first NAC, with parents who don't want to do anything to mess up their child's sport, and don't really know how things are done. They will just accept this burden.

Collective action is always difficult to make happen. Note that I'm not suggesting that anyone not go to the NAC. Just don't use THS for your reservations. May work, may not, but you'll save money if you don't use them

[Inquartata]

When your voice is ignored, as in this case, your screams are silent.

If only that worked with screaming fencers...

[flechewounds]

Folks -

It may be instructive to look at the US Volleyball version of Stay & Pay, found here: http://usavolleyball.org/content/index/6005

Also, there is more info here: http://assets.teamusa.org/assets/doc...ay_Release.pdf

You'll note some interesting "features."

First, the average room rate after S&P is around $100. That may represent a savings to some, but it is a LOT MORE than a $35/night Motel 6 or other budget accommodation that many of us choose to save money.

Second, there is no mention of any "waiver" or any new hotel provision.

Third, it isn't clear if the "selling to the public" rate that is quoted is the "rack rate" - e.g., the highest walk-in price. It probably is. AAA discounts, a little wheeling-and-dealing, priceline or hotwire likely offer better rates. I will bet dollars-to-donuts that those discounted rates are excluded from any "best price" guarantee. Hotel are loathe to give "most favored nations" clauses, so they usually load them up with exceptions to make them, in essence, useless.

Finally, since there are a range of room prices, and because they can't know who will wind up in which hotel (look at the last pp of the USV page), a team doesn't really know how much it will pay. When applied to our sport - what happens if we post for the low cost room, which fills up quickly, and are forced into a higher cost room? Who pays? This is a major fault in the process listed for USV, and one that will likely affect us.

[Morale Officer]

If only that worked with screaming fencers...

You don't like screamers?

[fdad]

Hmm. Since USFA says you should not plan to fly home the day of an event, does that mean you will be forced to rent rooms for two nights for a one day event? For Summer Nationals can you book a room thru THS for one night, fulfilling your THS obligation, then book the rest of your stay however you choose?

[mdstasinos]

Hmm. Since USFA says you should not plan to fly home the day of an event, does that mean you will be forced to rent rooms for two nights for a one day event? For Summer Nationals can you book a room thru THS for one night, fulfilling your THS obligation, then book the rest of your stay however you choose?

That has been policy for years. The USFA has stated time and time again it would not be wise to fly home the same day as your event. That has been around, that I know of, since the early 1990's. Plan your trip accordingly and if you choose to leave later the same day you compete you do so at your own risk. I do not see it any different than what it has been before: fly in the day before, fence the next day, and depart the following. I do not see the difference with the room nights there.

Mark Stasinos
Vice-President
US Fencing Association

[occasionalfencer]

That has been policy for years. The USFA has stated time and time again it would not be wise to fly home the same day as your event. That has been around, that I know of, since the early 1990's. Plan your trip accordingly and if you choose to leave later the same day you compete you do so at your own risk. I do not see it any different than what it has been before: fly in the day before, fence the next day, and depart the following. I do not see the difference with the room nights there.

Mark Stasinos
Vice-President
US Fencing Association

I think the point of the question is what would stay to play force you to do? Would they require at least 2 nights?

[mdstasinos]

I think the point of the question is what would stay to play force you to do? Would they require at least 2 nights?

I think if people want to risk to leave the same day of their competition, they will continue to book their stay accordingly. I doubt it will change them or force them to stay an additional night. The problem really is it is a bad practice to leave the same day of the competition. This season alone I know of three individuals who left to catch a flight while still in their DE's. They were all black carded for abandoning the competition.

Mark Stasinos
Vice-President
US Fencing Association

[keith]

I think if people want to risk to leave the same day of their competition, they will continue to book their stay accordingly. I doubt it will change them or force them to stay an additional night. The problem really is it is a bad practice to leave the same day of the competition. This season alone I know of three individuals who left to catch a flight while still in their DE's. They were all black carded for abandoning the competition.

Mark Stasinos
Vice-President
US Fencing Association

So that would be a yes.

The stay and play program will assume that two nights are required for any single days competition.

[flechewounds]

I think if people want to risk to leave the same day of their competition, they will continue to book their stay accordingly. I doubt it will change them or force them to stay an additional night. The problem really is it is a bad practice to leave the same day of the competition. This season alone I know of three individuals who left to catch a flight while still in their DE's. They were all black carded for abandoning the competition.

Mark Stasinos
Vice-President
US Fencing Association

Isn't this a calculated risk that should be at the discretion of the fencer? Certainly, if start times were posted, then it becomes less of an issue... but those are no longer posted early enough to address flight issues - another bone of contention, by the way.

That being said, Stay and Pay isn't Play and Stay - it would seem awfully difficult for them to require two nights at the Palais de THS... but then again, maybe I'm not Machiavellian enough.

Oh, and Mark - remember that staying another day means another day off of school or work... but that doesn't matter to a dedicated fencer, does it??????

[oso97]

I think if people want to risk to leave the same day of their competition, they will continue to book their stay accordingly. I doubt it will change them or force them to stay an additional night. The problem really is it is a bad practice to leave the same day of the competition. This season alone I know of three individuals who left to catch a flight while still in their DE's. They were all black carded for abandoning the competition.

Mark Stasinos
Vice-President
US Fencing Association

Mark, there is absolutely no reason for someone who fences in a a Women's Sabre event with a 7-8am check-in time to stay over the following night.

None. At. All.

And if the fencer is a high school student who is concerned about grades and attendance, and the event is on a Sunday, then they can fly in on Saturday morning, and fly out Sunday evening. Or they can not attend, and the USFA can lose the entry fee that would have been generated. Same thing goes for a fencer who has one of those things called a "real world job" and their attendance at their job Monday morning is important.

Case in point: My club brought 3 competitors to the DivII NAC in Chicago two seasons ago. We made the decision to attend that tournament based upon one single consideration: the fact that the Women's Sabre event was listed for Sunday and had a little # next to it, indicating that the event would be scheduled for the morning, and we could take a late flight out, AND NOT MISS ANY SCHOOL/WORK. I realize that 3 people is small potatoes, compared to the registrations for an entire NAC, but I wonder how many other people made that same judgment call?

That being said, my club has had a sit down and chat, and we've decided we're skipping the NAC's and JO's this next season, except for the one in our hometown. Instead, we're going to spend our travel budgets on ROCs. Why? Lower costs, even though we'll be traveling just as far or further, and better predictability of event schedules. We can afford to hit >>THREE<< out of region ROC's (Seattle, Vegas and Chicago) for just a bit more than the cost to travel to one NAC in Des Moines - AND not have to miss any school/work to do so!.

No brainer.

[flechewounds]

Mark, there is absolutely no reason for someone who fences in a a Women's Sabre event with a 7-8am check-in time to stay over the following night.

None. At. All.

Not true - if you don't stay the second night in Palais de THS, you deprive the host city of its expected revenue and the USFA of its kickback. Isn't that reason enough?

And if the fencer is a high school student who is concerned about grades and attendance, and the event is on a Sunday, then they can fly in on Saturday morning, and fly out Sunday evening. Or they can not attend, and the USFA can lose the entry fee that would have been generated. Same thing goes for a fencer who has one of those things called a "real world job" and their attendance at their job Monday morning is important.

Grades??? Jobs??? you must be kidding... we don't need no stinking grades and we don't need no stinking jobs...

And now for something (almost) completely different

Did you know that you could buy web development services from THS? Yes, that's right boys and girls... THS, through it's affiliate Opal Computing, offers state of the art (1999) web development services. See this link (4th bullet)...

Folks, I'm here to tell you... we're in deep sh*t...

[peet]

So that would be a yes.

The stay and play program will assume that two nights are required for any single days competition.

I think you misunderstood Mark. To me it sounds like he's saying the opposite: That S&P would most likely not affect a fencer's decision to leave the same day as their event.

He may be equivocating a bit because the policies are not yet set, but I don't think you can conclude that S&P will force a fencer to leave the following day.

-p

[hello?]

That has been policy for years. The USFA has stated time and time again it would not be wise to fly home the same day as your event. That has been around, that I know of, since the early 1990's. Plan your trip accordingly and if you choose to leave later the same day you compete you do so at your own risk. I do not see it any different than what it has been before: fly in the day before, fence the next day, and depart the following. I do not see the difference with the room nights there.

Mark Stasinos
Vice-President
US Fencing Association

What? I BELIEVE the poster was simply asking if, under the new policy, he would be FORCED to stay the number of nights that the USFA 'recommends' -- and forced to stay at the THS hotel for all those nights -- as opposed to it merely being 'suggested' that he stay those nights (as has been the case since, like you say, the early 1990's). I don't think he was implying that the 'recommended length of stay' was a new policy!!! Under the previous policy, if you failed to book a room for the extra night and your event (and good results) caused you to miss a flight, you were out of luck (or very, very lucky -- depending on how you rated great, unexpected results vs cost-of-new-flight-and-extra-hotel-night-costs). The poster (this is only my interpretation) was merely asking if the new policy would require people to book a minimum amount of nights, per USFA suggested stay guidelines, and do so through THS -- and whether it would be allowed to book ONE night at the THS-hotel and the others at the better/cheaper/more-suited-to-his-tastes alternative the person might find on his own on the web.......I could be misinterpreting. But it's nice to see another official source of information on this thread!!! Welcome! As you can see, we've all been speculating and kind of trying to piece together what is going on...

[hello?]

So that would be a yes.

The stay and play program will assume that two nights are required for any single days competition.

I don't THINK Mark was saying or implying that the Stay and Play program would require people to stay the extra night...just that HE personally agreed with the USFA suggestion that you should do so.......This is just a case of two very different subjects being mixed up in one thread: (1) people being forced to book their hotels through THS if they want to actually fence at the events they registered for and (b) it being smart or not-so-smart to book a flight back home for the day on which you are competing. It would be good if we could keep them separate since they are, in reality, totally unrelated.

[gladius]

...if the fencer is a high school student who is concerned about grades and attendance, and the event is on a Sunday, then they can fly in on Saturday morning, and fly out Sunday evening. Or they can not attend, and the USFA can lose the entry fee that would have been generated. Same thing goes for a fencer who has one of those things called a "real world job" and their attendance at their job Monday morning is important.

This is a very important consideration if you .... study and fence. Considering that one of the best paybacks for student-fencers is access to a top college in US as a student-athlete, it is surprising how little attention the USFA is giving to this segment of the membership and its special needs as pointed out by oso97.

It is also very disappointing to see how little this "benefit" is advertised/promoted by the USFA, that fencing can help young students a lot... I saw an interesting program on the Golf channel (there is no fencing channel...) about Hank Haney Int'l Junior Golf Academy. What was the first pep talk to new student-golfers? "If you do well (study + golf) we are talking college and even scholarship in your future" and this in a sport where pros make a pretty penny. They think college opportunity offered by golf is a great selling point!

...my club has had a sit down and chat, and we've decided we're skipping the NAC's and JO's this next season, except for the one in our hometown. Instead, we're going to spend our travel budgets on ROCs. Why? Lower costs, even though we'll be traveling just as far or further, and better predictability of event schedules. We can afford to hit >>THREE<< out of region ROC's (Seattle, Vegas and Chicago) for just a bit more than the cost to travel to one NAC in Des Moines - AND not have to miss any school/work to do so!.

No brainer.

(emphasis added)

Yep, no brainer indeed! And I wonder how many others will do the same and the impact on the USFA rosy predictions and projections?

[teacup]

For the December 2008 NAC, the Broadmoor Hotel booked through THS had a two night minimum.

In the future if a fencer wants to fly home the same night as their event though advised not to do so by the USFA, therefore only needing one night, if they are forced to book at a THS hotel with a two night minimum would they would have to pay for two nights or would they be granted a waiver?

In a perfect world everyone would fly out the next day, but even referees start flying home on the last day of competitions.

(Due to double stripping and the rush to be finished maybe competitors on the last day of competitions should receive a discount on their entry fees.)

[mdstasinos]

Mark, there is absolutely no reason for someone who fences in a a Women's Sabre event with a 7-8am check-in time to stay over the following night.

None. At. All.

And if the fencer is a high school student who is concerned about grades and attendance, and the event is on a Sunday, then they can fly in on Saturday morning, and fly out Sunday evening. Or they can not attend, and the USFA can lose the entry fee that would have been generated. Same thing goes for a fencer who has one of those things called a "real world job" and their attendance at their job Monday morning is important.

Case in point: My club brought 3 competitors to the DivII NAC in Chicago two seasons ago. We made the decision to attend that tournament based upon one single consideration: the fact that the Women's Sabre event was listed for Sunday and had a little # next to it, indicating that the event would be scheduled for the morning, and we could take a late flight out, AND NOT MISS ANY SCHOOL/WORK. I realize that 3 people is small potatoes, compared to the registrations for an entire NAC, but I wonder how many other people made that same judgment call?

That being said, my club has had a sit down and chat, and we've decided we're skipping the NAC's and JO's this next season, except for the one in our hometown. Instead, we're going to spend our travel budgets on ROCs. Why? Lower costs, even though we'll be traveling just as far or further, and better predictability of event schedules. We can afford to hit >>THREE<< out of region ROC's (Seattle, Vegas and Chicago) for just a bit more than the cost to travel to one NAC in Des Moines - AND not have to miss any school/work to do so!.

No brainer.

That is simply your choice and as an administrator of your club if that is the best value for your club and it's members, Great! Go for it.
I would strongly disagree with your conclusion that you can attend 3 Rocs for the cost, travel, time in relation to 1 NAC in Des Monies. This is an exaggeration. I have done the cost for my fencers as well and you are no where in the ball park, and if those reading this thread understand you just stated you could buy travel, lodging, entries and other related expenses to three ROC's for three of your fencers and still be ahead or only a little over the cost of one NAC, your wrong. I have been doing this type of cost analysis for nearly 30 years and I challenge you to produce those numbers to such a conclusion. I believe those reading the thread would love to be educated on this deal.

Mark Stasinos
Vice-President
US Fencing Association