Are saber and foil fencing at risk of extinction?

[piste off]

refereeing epee is much easier[/B]

Refereeing epee is easier, no doubt... if everything goes OK.

However, it is the weapon that can cause the most volatile situations when something does.

R-

[Inquartata]

1. The situation in saber is serious, says Maestro Coltorti. But obviously what the hell does he know compared with the common wisdom of most members of this forum?

He knows best what his own opinion is. But it's odd, not to say a bit presumptuous, that he takes it upon himself to say that others---large numbers of others---who actually fence the weapon don' understand it or the rules or refereeing conventions and thus are being "discouraged".

Keeping with the statistical theme of the thread , I would like to ask what was the size and nature of his sample. I'll bet that I could match it this coming week by going around and asking sabre fencers whether or not they ever considered not starting or continuing to fence sabre because of Sr. Coltorti's ennumerated reasons.

Instead, I'll content myself with speaking for myself, instead of trying to extrapolate my own pet theories that foil is weird and epee boring into a systemic problem that needs addressing by the USFA...

I am doing significantly better than just "surviving", thankyou.

I also heard that you killed you a b'ar when you were only three.

Keep in mind that the initial cri de coeur comes from saber and foil coaches and club managers in Italy who see the number of foil and saber fencers declining while those of epee fencers are rising.

But DOES it, really? We have only Sr. Coltotri's say-so on the matter.

And if it's true, which ones and how many? ( I'd bet that a whole lot of coaches and club managers of "classical" fencing clubs in this country would say the same thing, cough, Evangelista, cough. But how far are they to be credited? )

I found particularly interesting the comment by Maestro Alberto Coltorti, considered as one of the best saber specialists in Italy, who wrote, [I]"If I were today to start my career as fencing coach (Maestro di scherma) I would dedicate myself to a weapon different from saber.

Very well for him. But why does he claim to speak for sabre fencers and coaches generally?

We are disconcerted by the current refereeing.

Is that the royal "We", by any chance?

Nobody understands anything any more, athletes, referees, coaches,

Really? NObody? Nobody at all? Has he really asked EVERYone?

All I did with this thread was to share this info, not to express my personal opinion,

Some of us got it, and appreciate it.

"We" still disagree with the Maestro on these points, though.

[gladius]

He knows best what his own opinion is. But it's odd, not to say a bit presumptuous, that he takes it upon himself to say that others---large numbers of others---who actually fence the weapon don' understand it or the rules or refereeing conventions and thus are being "discouraged".

He (Maestro Coltorti) speaks for himself and a number of equally worried individuals (saber coaches and club managers of saber only clubs) in ITALY. He is not talking about what happens in Arizona in general or you in particular. You are free to disagree with him after he has posted (he promised he will) a detailed presentation which I'll be glad to explain to you in a lingo which you'll be able to read and hopefully comprehend.

Keeping with the statistical theme of the thread , I would like to ask what was the size and nature of his sample. I'll bet that I could match it this coming week by going around and asking sabre fencers whether or not they ever considered not starting or continuing to fence sabre because of Sr. Coltorti's ennumerated reasons.

I don't know what kind of educational background you have but I am sure that it does not include Latin nor math/statistics. But if it does, you need basic refreshing courses in both before continuing.

There is no statistical theme in this thread other than the colloquial use of "statistics" for "data," numbers related to a specific country. I grant you that the same data for the US would not produce these trends if we consider the numbers of fencers per weapon registered at SN in Dallas. But the OP did not talk about the US.

Instead, I'll content myself with speaking for myself, instead of trying to extrapolate my own pet theories that foil is weird and epee boring into a systemic problem that needs addressing by the USFA...

Who ever said that the USFA should address this problem? However, just for the sake of argument, suppose that the FIS first and the FIE afterwards disagree with you and agree with the cri de coeur of Maestro Coltorti et al., and the FIE decides to do something about it (it happens you know, remember the bib issue in foil?). Then you'll have the entire stage to mount a winning campaign to stop these minions in their tracks. It will be fun, I'll guarantee you, for you and everybody else (presumption on my part).

But DOES it, really? We have only Sr. Coltotri's say-so on the matter.

He and others, including Maestro Toran, and I'll try to find who else for you. Promise.

And if it's true, which ones and how many? ( I'd bet that a whole lot of coaches and club managers of "classical" fencing clubs in this country would say the same thing, cough, Evangelista, cough. But how far are they to be credited? )

You go off on a tangent again. This is not the point of view of "classical" fencing clubs, even though some of them may agree with Coltorti et al.

Very well for him. But why does he claim to speak for sabre fencers and coaches generally?

Is that the royal "We", by any chance?

He speaks for those he has discussed these things with. Even in English, when the subject is made of more than one person you are supposed to use the pronoun "we"

Really? NObody? Nobody at all? Has he really asked EVERYone?

No, and I suppose that in his mind his "sample" is "statistically significant." It does not include YOU for the opposite reason.

Some of us got it, and appreciate it.

"We" still disagree with the Maestro on these points, though.

Ah, finally we agree on something!

I will convey your disagreement to Maestro Coltorti (though I do not know him) and invite him to debate with you. If he accepts, I'll be glad to be the trait d'union between you two.

However, with your statements to the contrary, you got me curious to check data, "statistics," of the 3 weapons in the US at SN. Indeed, while saber figures are lower than the other two weapons, our foil seems to have more fencers than epee, and the differences between the 3 weapons is not nearly as marked as the Italian figures.

This is actually interesting since I dare guess that in the 10 years or so I've been interested in US fencing, our saber numbers have increased... (I did not conduct an in depth statistical analysis of this, just remembering vaguely numbers of the past as compared with today).

I will point this to our Italian friends and credit you for the discovery. Who knows, maybe they will see the light and I am sure they will be glad to give you all the credit. After all their livelihood depends on YOU being right and THEY being wrong in this issue...

Let's see what they say and I'll keep you posted.

Thank you!

PS: Please let's hold on and wait to hear what "statistical significant data" and the other reasons the Italians have and what they reply. This could be actually very interesting for all.

[Inquartata]

He (Maestro Coltorti) speaks for himself and a number of equally worried individuals (saber coaches and club managers of saber only clubs) in ITALY.

Again....which ones? How many?

He is not talking about what happens in Arizona in general or you in particular.

If you did not think that his opinions had some relevance outside Italy, why on earth DID you post them here?

I don't know what kind of educational background you have but I am sure that it does not include Latin nor math/statistics. But if it does, you need basic refreshing courses in both before continuing.

Tsk! argumentum ad hominem.

There is no statistical theme in this thread

Shall I go back and count for you the number of people who jumped all over you for your misunderstanding of basic statistical principles, and the number of their posts, and the number of your replies on the subject?

Sure looked like a theme to me.

But what do I know, I'm just a poor sabre fencer who can't understand the rules or refereeing; not even one worthy of having his name writ in bold letters...

Who ever said that the USFA should address this problem?

Again, if there is no possible interest in concerns unique to Italy outside of Italy, why bother to post them at all?

You will note that the title of this thread does not end in the phrase "in Italy and Only in Italy". It implies universality. ( I will not say that anyone else who has posted thus far agrees, but a reading of their words might lead one to that general idea. )

He speaks for those he has discussed these things with.

Does he?

Do they all KNOW that he speaks for them?

And do we know who and how many they are?

No, and I suppose that in his mind his "sample" is "statistically significant."

Doubtless.

However, with your statements to the contrary, you got me curious to check data, "statistics," of the 3 weapons in the US at SN. Indeed, while saber figures are lower than the other two weapons, our foil seems to have more fencers than epee, and the differences between the 3 weapons is not nearly as marked as the Italian figures.

This could as easily be related to the practice of starting novices in foil at many salles, or of the length of time for which the weapons have been around/been fenced electrically, or---who knows? I wouldn't draw any conclusions about whether the rules for one are more or less confusing than those for another, or whether one or another is on the road to extinction, though. But that's just me.

[Grasshopper]

Statistically speaking, in China, even if you are a one in a million kind of guy, there are a thousand more just like you.

[chinbeard]

Are saber and foil fencing at risk of extinction?

Who cares?

</discussion>

[K O'N]

*snort* Kevin, speaking from personal experience, its not quite as difficult to get established as you are making it out to seem.

Ok. Though I suspect you're not factoring in all the time you've spent becoming a saber ref, and thus part of the 'club', at least locally.

Oh, and as far as ongoing maintenance costs? Sabre is far less, even when you factor in the costs of the lame.

No. I'm around a saber club fairly often, and I run a small epee club. Ignoring for a moment the differences in box prices (I can cobble together an epee box for $40 or so, or use thirty year old F-E boxes I found in the back of someone's closet), just look at the costs of putting a fencer on the strip; let's ignore the uniform, since it's the same, more or less:

Epee:

StM non-FIE epee: $59

Mask: $44

Body cord: $20

Total: $123



Saber:

StM non-FIE saber: $55

BG cheapo Lame: $87

Mask: $78

Mask cord: $7

Body cord: $20

Total: $247

That's being pretty generous, since a cheapo lame may not actually save you any money. A StM epee is pretty durable, it's not a Chinese $20 epee that will break in a week, so the kid you outfit for $123 with epee stuff will still be fencing with it in a year, with minimal costs for parts.

If the cheapo lame for $87 is not very durable, the differences seem to go up rather quickly; the next lame BG lists is $119, then $163, and so on. I have no idea how long the various models last in regular club fencing, but you have a ways to go to convince me that outfitting 20 kids for a year in electric saber stuff is "way cheaper" than the same 20 kids in electric epee stuff. As far as maintenance, if we ignore initial outlay, the regular costs in epee and saber are related to the above, since everything eventually wears out. Epee blades are a little more expensive than saber blades, but those costs are again overwhelmed by replacing saber lames and masks.

K O'N

[Inquartata]

Have you factored in the never-ending litany of new wires, springs, screws, spaghetti tubing, glue and tips? The tools? The opportunity cost of all the time epeeists ( and foilists ) spend fixing, testing and tinkering instead of fencing?

At my salle those guys seem to spend half the practice sitting on the floor with a towel full of parts and tools spread in front of them. Meanwhile I am bouting.

[gladius]

Interesting post. While I don't think sabre fencing (I can't speak to foil ) is going extinct, I think the discussion brings up a question of refereeing. It seems as if the current rule interpretations allow for a wider range of more subtle judgement calls by the referees, making it harder for there to be a universal consensus, which would explain why even the "experts" don't agree.

Perhaps rule changes that leave even less to interpretation by the ref would solve this?

(emphasis mine)

From the USFA web site: finally a report from Sunil Sabharwal, USFA rep at the FIE EC.

http://usfencing.org/news/article/13966

Significant work has been undertaken by all the commissions in evaluating the proposals submitted by the national federations for the FIE Congress to be held in Palermo, Italy later on in November this year. The proposals have ranged from significant proposed rule changes, such as changing the blockage time in Saber to administrative ones, such as the number of General Assemblies and Congresses required by the FIE in a quadrennial. The proposals have recently been commented on by the respective Commissions, and will now be heading to the Executive Committee for final discussion and recommendation to the Congress. At this point, it is uncertain which proposals would be supported by the EC, and in any event final decisions will not be taken until the FIE Congress.

(emphasis mine)


Hmm, rule changes in saber? "Blockage time in Saber"???

Wonder who came up with this idea and which "statistical analysis" they used to support it???

[sabreur]

Just a minor musing.

People in the US in particular tend to overreact to any discussion about modern fencing that mentions the sport's roots in the duel. This reaction is understandable, given the ill-informed and overheated statements by a number of ostensible US defenders of the sport's roots.

In Europe, fencing is much more connected to its roots, because national schools and traditions can be traced directly back to 19th Century schools and masters. My Hungarian coach has no problem at all discussing how his teaching derives from and is informed by that of Italo Santelli and Barbasetti, as well as by a whole litany of Hungarian masters who taught his masters or taught him directly. At the same time, he is a completely modern coach, who teaches completely modern fencing.

In fact, I would suggest that the flexibility of the traditional fencing nations (Italy, France, Hungary, and I have to add, Russia) and their ability to adapt to change stems oddly enough from their connection with tradition. There is very little new to be discovered about fencing--but sometimes, the answers have to be pulled out of the tradition and it takes a while. Willie Kothny's "mungo attacks" are a good example--they got him to the top of the world rankings for a year, but then the other good fencers (and their coaches) figured out how to counter that approach and Kothny very rapidly slipped back down the ratings.

[K O'N]

Have you factored in the never-ending litany of new wires, springs, screws, spaghetti tubing, glue and tips? The tools? The opportunity cost of all the time epeeists ( and foilists ) spend fixing, testing and tinkering instead of fencing?

Wires and screws are cheap compared to lames. Regarding time spent fiddling on strip, I think you're thinking more of foil than epee. I do all the maintenance in my club, for 12 to 15 kids fencing three days a week with cheap club epees. It takes me an average of an hour a week. No one is sitting on the strip working on anything during practice.

At my salle those guys seem to spend half the practice sitting on the floor with a towel full of parts and tools spread in front of them. Meanwhile I am bouting.

Unless your lame goes dead, or your body cord breaks, or a blade breaks.

Seriously, if your clubmates are spending half the practice working on epees someone should buy them one of the books on how to fix them or point them to a web page or something, that's ridiculous.

K O'N

[Inquartata]

Screws may be cheap, but you guys seem to go through a LOT of them.

If I break a blade, I use another weapon. Afterward, it takes me about 1 minute to put a new blade in the weapon. No gluing, no wiring, no weird chain contraptions to keep the blade bent, no testing or adjusting. Just insert and done.

Blades cost about $18. How much is a good epee blade? Let alone an FIE epee blade?

[K O'N]

Screws may be cheap, but you guys seem to go through a LOT of them.

If I break a blade, I use another weapon. Afterward, it takes me about 1 minute to put a new blade in the weapon. No gluing, no wiring, no weird chain contraptions to keep the blade bent, no testing or adjusting. Just insert and done.

Blades cost about $18. How much is a good epee blade? Let alone an FIE epee blade?

An StM wired non FIE is $46, an LP wired non FIE is $75. The StM will last a couple of years, the LP is better, but we've actually managed to break a couple. I think they last longer than saber blades do, but probably not three times as long.

How much is a decent lame? How long will one last fencing, say, eight or ten hours a week? How long does one of your masks last you? I still don't see how you could possibly think saber is cheaper than epee.

K O'N

[mrbiggs]

An StM wired non FIE is $46, an LP wired non FIE is $75. The StM will last a couple of years

That is NOT necessarily true, by any means, for many fencers.


Two years is a really long time for a non-FIE blade to last. I'd give it a one year lifespan since it's a good blade, assuming that the fencer only fences once or twice a week for a short time and has a style that's easy on it.

[I_luv_saber]

How much is a decent lame? How long will one last fencing, say, eight or ten hours a week? How long does one of your masks last you? I still don't see how you could possibly think saber is cheaper than epee.

Saber is much cheaper than epee, in my experiences in MY club with MY fencers. I think I picked up my lame for around $100. I had to buy a new one a few years later, but it was due to size (I was stilla teen), not that it stopped working. It was still passing at comps with flying colors . I donated it to the club for public use, and it was still working.

Basically, a decent saber lame and mask, when properly cared for, can last a long time (in my experience), a very good number of years. Blade breaks, however, are much more common, no matter how much care you put into it. Those breaks add up quick...

In my experience, saber takes more initial investment, but less money in the long run. Maybe I'll do the math a little later tonight if I get bored...

[I_luv_saber]

So I got bored and did the math.

I used Leon Paul, since I like their stuff, and it's a good standard, IMO.

Also, for the sake of simplicity, I did not list small items (epee wires, saber insulator, etc (I believe epee would naturally get more of a cost hit here, but I think the amount is fairly negligible for a small scale comparison)) or items that are common between weapons (standard jacket, knickers, etc.). All gear is non-FIE except where noted otherwise. All amounts are in GBP WITH VAT!

I tried my best to find pretty exact equivilants across weapons. Here's the list.

Mask*:
Men's Insulated Epee Mask 1600N (no contour fit) - 99.5
Men's Electric Sabre Mask 1600N (no contour fit) - 106.04
*Masks were FIE since I could not find a 350N sabre electric mask to match the epee. To keep it fair, I bumped both to FIE.

Lame:
Epee - none
Men's Standard Lame - 145.5

Weapon:
Complete Standard Electric Epee - 112.63 Blades (Wired) - 41.27
Complete Standard Electric Sabre - 47.31 Blades - 17.17


Total Sabre Startup Cost (minus cross-weapon equipment) - 298.85
Total Epee Startup Cost (minus cross-weapon equipment) - 212.13

Difference: 86.72


Now, a properly cared for lame will last years (IMO, again). A properly cared for blade breaks once a year, conservatively (some more, some less, but I think it's a decent average). It only takes 4 blade breaks (assuming both the saber and epee blade last the same time and break the same time... again for the sake of argument) before they've each reached the same cost so far. This is, of course, not including the time spent by the fencer or armory fees required to fix a broken epee, whereas a sabre is a simple swap of the blade.

In the end, the difference is less than I suspected. Pretty close to the same. My best guess based on this info is that, on average, saber and epee cost the same amount to fence. I think epee costs a little more, but that's my opinion. This all varied according to fencer, and a bit of luck, but I think it gives a good idea of an average.

[K O'N]

So I got bored and did the math.

I used Leon Paul, since I like their stuff, and it's a good standard, IMO.

Also, for the sake of simplicity, I did not list small items (epee wires, saber insulator, etc (I believe epee would naturally get more of a cost hit here, but I think the amount is fairly negligible for a small scale comparison)) or items that are common between weapons (standard jacket, knickers, etc.). All gear is non-FIE except where noted otherwise. All amounts are in GBP WITH VAT!

I tried my best to find pretty exact equivilants across weapons. Here's the list.

Mask*:
Men's Insulated Epee Mask 1600N (no contour fit) - 99.5
Men's Electric Sabre Mask 1600N (no contour fit) - 106.04
*Masks were FIE since I could not find a 350N sabre electric mask to match the epee. To keep it fair, I bumped both to FIE.

Lame:
Epee - none
Men's Standard Lame - 145.5

Weapon:
Complete Standard Electric Epee - 112.63 Blades (Wired) - 41.27
Complete Standard Electric Sabre - 47.31 Blades - 17.17


Total Sabre Startup Cost (minus cross-weapon equipment) - 298.85
Total Epee Startup Cost (minus cross-weapon equipment) - 212.13

Difference: 86.72


Now, a properly cared for lame will last years (IMO, again). A properly cared for blade breaks once a year, conservatively (some more, some less, but I think it's a decent average). It only takes 4 blade breaks (assuming both the saber and epee blade last the same time and break the same time... again for the sake of argument) before they've each reached the same cost so far. This is, of course, not including the time spent by the fencer or armory fees required to fix a broken epee, whereas a sabre is a simple swap of the blade.

In the end, the difference is less than I suspected. Pretty close to the same. My best guess based on this info is that, on average, saber and epee cost the same amount to fence. I think epee costs a little more, but that's my opinion. This all varied according to fencer, and a bit of luck, but I think it gives a good idea of an average.

Good god. So I come up with 123 USD and you come up with 212 GBP?? Man. Why are you using pounds, we're both in the US? Anyway, that seems very high to me. I like LP too, but the epee amounts I gave were not made up, they are what I actually spend on equipment. For example, your LP saber mask costs 7% more than the epee mask. At the level of club equipment from a US supplier such as one might go to if one were in economy mode, the difference is larger. That's a quibble, but still.

I was not aware that lame technology had improved so much since I quit foil. Then again, I quit foil a long time ago. On the other hand, you appear to think that epee blades are made of glass or something. I bought a batch of 20 Dinamo bare blades when I started the club five years ago. Six of them are still in service, though by now they look a bit like coat hangers that have been run over by snow plows. The mean time before breakage when they're in regular use is about two years. LP non FIE blades are a lot better, though we actually just broke two of them that's after two years using them; I use a couple myself as my club weapons, and three or four of my kids use them, and have for a couple of years. These were the first breaks we've had. So the mean time before breakage is well in excess of two years, I would say, fencing three times a week plus competitions.

That may be in part because I start with 12 year old beginners, they're less hard on blades than a couple of big strong "A"s, and I put a 'club bend' in the club epees, but once a year is way off the mark.

The most interesting part of this to me is hearing the horror people have of the tiny screws and awful wires. I guess I'm just used to them. You do understand, though, that if you buy wired blades replacing a broken epee blade is no harder than replacing a saber blade, right? Put the handle on, hook up two wires, you're done. No fiddling with the tip or wire needed.

Anyway, I'm off to put a new got-dam zipper in my got-dam uniform, then mow the yard, then pack my stuff and drive to Dallas. Good luck if you're going,

K O'N

[K O'N]

That is NOT necessarily true, by any means, for many fencers.


Two years is a really long time for a non-FIE blade to last. I'd give it a one year lifespan since it's a good blade, assuming that the fencer only fences once or twice a week for a short time and has a style that's easy on it.

It depends on who is using it. The context of the comparison was club equipment for beginners. If you put a 2 or 3 cm club bend in the epee and use it in beginner classes for kids it will last for ages, years and years.

On the other hand, I have a former student who seems able to break anything but a Vniti FIE the first week he uses it. He's a big strong kid, fencing other big strong kids at a pretty high level. The only way a non FIE StM would last him a year is if he left it in his closet.

I have a few other kids who are getting big and strong and fast enough to be too rough for cheap blades, fine then, buy your own freakin' epees. And they do, usually LPs, some Vnitis, one likes the StM FIE, fine, whatever. But for beginner club blades the cheap StMs are fine, and they don't break in a year. And the non-FIE LP lasts ages even outside a beginner class, the idea that they have a mean failure time of a year is silly.

K O'N

[Inquartata]

I think they last longer than saber blades do, but probably not three times as long.

Sabre blade life spans are highly variable, in my experience. I use a couple that are over 5 years old. They tend to last me about 2 years on average---possibly because unlike most sabre fencers I don't cant my tangs in search of some magically superior balance or feel. At any rate, mine tend to break at the foible when they do break, rather than at the guard, where everyone eles's seem to break...

How much is a decent lame?

Depends on exchange rates, whether the vendor is offering any discounts---frequent at NACs and Nationals---and manufacturer. I have been wont to use Uhlmanns. Haven't bought one in a few years, so I'm not sure what the current prices are.

How long will one last fencing, say, eight or ten hours a week?

A very long time. That's because I use one that won't pass resistance any more in practice. Which means that the one I use for competitions lasts several years, then gets retired to practice use, where it will suffice for several more years. ( Even longer if I am inclined to patch dead spots as they are found. )

How long does one of your masks last you?

Same drill as with the lamés: A couple of years in competition, then several more in practice. Longer still with patching.

My next one will probably be a Leon Paul Xchange, which I expect will last even longer.

This does not apply to the stupid visor mask I have to have for Worlds, which mandates a visor change-out every 2 years.

[I_luv_saber]

Good god. So I come up with 123 USD and you come up with 212 GBP?? Man. Why are you using pounds, we're both in the US?

I used the Leon Paul website, and their amount were in GBP. I don't think it matters... convert to dollars and voila!

Anyway, that seems very high to me. I like LP too, but the epee amounts I gave were not made up, they are what I actually spend on equipment. For example, your LP saber mask costs 7% more than the epee mask. At the level of club equipment from a US supplier such as one might go to if one were in economy mode, the difference is larger. That's a quibble, but still.

I don't see how you could possibly have an issue with my system. I used ONE suppliers website (didn't "shop around") and used ONE standard. Plus LP is a pretty good site to use as a standard, I think, being one of the most used suppliers in the world. If the only thing available on the LP site is a 1600N mask, it's only fair to bump the epee mask up to a 1600N as well. It's exactly the same, you're nitpicking.

As far as amounts, it's only fair to use ONE standard. Sure, you might go cheaper on epee by shopping around, but I could go a lot cheaper for saber by shopping around as well. I still don't see how on earth you could have a problem with it... I couldn't have been more fair if I tried! I didn't take FIE epee equipment and club level saber... all were the same level.

I was not aware that lame technology had improved so much since I quit foil. Then again, I quit foil a long time ago. On the other hand, you appear to think that epee blades are made of glass or something. I bought a batch of 20 Dinamo bare blades when I started the club five years ago. Six of them are still in service, though by now they look a bit like coat hangers that have been run over by snow plows. The mean time before breakage when they're in regular use is about two years. LP non FIE blades are a lot better, though we actually just broke two of them that's after two years using them; I use a couple myself as my club weapons, and three or four of my kids use them, and have for a couple of years. These were the first breaks we've had. So the mean time before breakage is well in excess of two years, I would say, fencing three times a week plus competitions.

Not in my experience. In my club, most fencers (regardless of weapon) had around a break a year (some more, some less). I can also say that my lame has lasted 7 years (with some fixes needed)... but that's not the average user. I think about 3-5 is fair, though...

The most interesting part of this to me is hearing the horror people have of the tiny screws and awful wires. I guess I'm just used to them. You do understand, though, that if you buy wired blades replacing a broken epee blade is no harder than replacing a saber blade, right? Put the handle on, hook up two wires, you're done. No fiddling with the tip or wire needed.

Yes, I do realize that. Most fencers with under 2 years experience in my club turned everything in to the armory to get done, but that's just my experience. I'll take your word on that though, because my club did not have a LOT of epee fencers...