God bless the U.S.

[Hauptman]

Don't write it off so easily. Gore is a former VP and still a very influential figure in the Democratic Party.

Again, I'm not suggesting the RNC is not full of BS, just that the Democratic Party is as well.

I'll not go tit-for-tat pulling a Democrat quote for every Republican quote you post and tally the score. We'll be here until we die doing that. If you choose to turn a blind eye to it, then you may, but I think it's pretty obvious that Dems jump in the wring and mudwrestle with the best of them.

You ignored the real point of my post... did you read the rest?

Just look at the rants that appear even in our little fencing world which most people think has a somewhat liberal slant. The most hostile, epithet slinging, over-the-top rants seem to be coming from the far-right, not the left.

Now I'm not saying that the left has never been extreme, but that was more than 30 years ago. The right seems to be consistantly much more radical and has been since the '80s.

[I_luv_saber]

You ignored the real point of my post... did you read the rest?

I didn't ignore the point of your post... or at least the point you're reiterating now.

You want institutional idiocy? Here's yet another example of both sides smearing:

Factcheck.org

But this smearing is okay because it's "right" I guess? I suppose whether smearing is okay or not simply depends on what side of it you're on at the time...

Just look at the rants that appear even in our little fencing world which most people think has a somewhat liberal slant. The most hostile, epithet slinging, over-the-top rants seem to be coming from the far-right, not the left.

And? This proves what? That we have more vocal righties on this board? You're drawing from a very small pool.

I have a hard time believing this is exclusively (or even mostly) a right-sided problem. I've seen similar stupid rants come out of the left. Notably that anyone in favor of gun ownership should "be shot themselves". Or how 'bout the whole "righties are a bunch of stupid Southerners/hillbillies" stereotype. Need I pull up the "Alaska = backwater state" comment? The left has it's share of high ranking idiots that smear and slander. Does this prove that lefties are more radical than righties? Of course not. It proves that both sides have loudmouths.

Now I'm not saying that the left has never been extreme, but that was more than 30 years ago. The right seems to be consistantly much more radical and has been since the '80s.

I know what you're saying, and I don't think YOU think that the right is alone in it's extremism. I DO disagree however in saying that any side does it much worse than the other.

[I_luv_saber]

I think part of the reason why you think the way you do may be that you're simply counting one instance of a Dem behaving badly to one instance of a Republican behaving badly, unweighted.

Not really. In the instance I was quoting, I was simply pointing out a one-liner counter to "Palling around with terrorists".

You're not taking into account the eliminationism and anti-intellectualism that are currently and increasingly endemic to Republican rhetoric.

See my above post. DMC has been doing it as well. That they are better at hiding it does not make it okay.

For example, just last week, Joe "the Plumber" delivered an address to a teabagging party wherein he called for the lynching of Senator Dodd. Do you hold this as equivalent to Gore's comment?

Depending the context it's in, no, probably not. However I would note that comparisons of Republican candidates to Hitler as well as others of the Nazi party (not an uncommon smear from the left) is not a whole lot better.

And despite having previously held public office, Gore has dropped largely out of the political limelight these days and is much less visible as a party spokesperson than are characters like Wurzelbacher.

Most people identify him very closely with the DMC. I think writing it off as not a big deal while pointing to "Joe the Plumber" is pretty much the definition of Double Standard and a little bit silly. I imagine Gore has more clout than Joe.

If Bush said something similar (someone who has also been out of the limelight lately (much to his relief I'm sure ) ) he'd be shouted down by the left. Gore doesn't receive the same treatment. Hell, you've to look no further than the Joe vs Gore comments above! This and similar situations make any notion of the Democrats being any more clean hard to believe.

More than anything else it was this distressing movement towards eliminationist rhetoric that motivated Colin Powell to cross party lines and endorse Obama, because he felt that McCain was tacitly accepting a dangerous transformation in the Republican party.

Which proves...?

[Hauptman]

I didn't ignore the point of your post... or at least the point you're reiterating now.

You want institutional idiocy? Here's yet another example of both sides smearing:

Factcheck.org

But this smearing is okay because it's "right" I guess? I suppose whether smearing is okay or not simply depends on what side of it you're on at the time...



And? This proves what? That we have more vocal righties on this board? You're drawing from a very small pool.

I have a hard time believing this is exclusively (or even mostly) a right-sided problem. I've seen similar stupid rants come out of the left. Notably that anyone in favor of gun ownership should "be shot themselves". Or how 'bout the whole "righties are a bunch of stupid Southerners/hillbillies" stereotype. Need I pull up the "Alaska = backwater state" comment? The left has it's share of high ranking idiots that smear and slander. Does this prove that lefties are more radical than righties? Of course not. It proves that both sides have loudmouths.



I know what you're saying, and I don't think YOU think that the right is alone in it's extremism. I DO disagree however in saying that any side does it much worse than the other.

Again, you missed the point of my post regarding hyperbole.

The arguments that I see from the Right are that Obama and Democrats literally are leading us to fascism, socialism, and communism. No hyperbole... not rhetoric; they are making this a factual claim.

The arguments made here by Bayou Bum are identical to what I see from Rush, FOX News, TownHall, National Review, etc. All are mainstream Right-wing media, not fringe elements at all.

[I_luv_saber]

Again, you missed the point of my post regarding hyperbole.

The arguments that I see from the Right are that Obama and Democrats literally are leading us to fascism, socialism, and communism. No hyperbole... not rhetoric; they are making this a factual claim.

I don't hear the fascism claim thrown around any more seriously than it was against Bush. I do hear "leading us to socialism", rarely communism, and when it is used it seems like nothing more than an exaggeration. As far as the socialism claim, I make two points:

1) While Obama is not pushing for socialism in the strictest sense of the word, he does push to socialize certain things and is for big government. Whie it's a stretch to call it socialism it does in fact have some base in reality.

2) How is this any different than liberal claims of conservatives turning us into a theocracy or similar silly rants? Don't you remember all the "kooky Bible nut" accusations and such during Bush?

The arguments made here by Bayou Bum are identical to what I see from Rush, FOX News, TownHall, National Review, etc. All are mainstream Right-wing media, not fringe elements at all.

Right wing media is right wing. No shock here. I can claim similar counter-stories aired from MSNBC. I wouldn't call MSNBC fringe, would you?

I would also note that Rush/Hannity/FOX do not equal the "institutionalized" smearing you speak of. If we're going to dip into media, let's dip into media... but if the argument is it's happening as an institution, let's stick with the institution (i.e. the Republican or Democratic Party)

[Sins of the Fleche]

I think I'ld disagree on calling Rush and certain employees of FOX News voices of the mainstream Right. They might be the loudest and most well-known voices of the Right, but a good number of newspaper editorials and journalists of avowed conservative stance do criticize Obama's economic policies as circular and ineffective, but they don't label him a fascist or communist. Alot of Republican politicians, including McCain, took Obama to task over differences of politics, but Rush, FOX, and the other "voices of the Right" called Obama everything from a terrorist-sympathizer to Godzilla's personal trainer.

To me, the serious journalist-pundits are the voices of the mainstream Right, whereas Rush & Co. are a collection of loonies who still claim a mantle of authority and relevance that they haven't had for a long time. In my opinion, the mainstream Right thinks more like the Mallard Fillmore comic strip or op-ed pieces in regional newspapers rather than the cable news brigade.

Just because the most well-known voices say they speak for a group doesn't necessarily make it so. For instance, it'ld be a mistake on my part to claim the mainstream Left is spoken for by Mother Jones or Phil Donahue.

Just my opinion.

[fencerchica]

To me, the serious journalist-pundits are the voices of the mainstream Right, whereas Rush & Co. are a collection of loonies who still claim a mantle of authority and relevance that they haven't had for a long time.

I think the timing is not the best for one to be dismissing Rush as an entity of little influence wrt the leadership of the GOP. It's only been a couple of months since the Chairman of the GOP himself apologized to Rush after offending him with a description of him as "an incendiary entertainer" -- Steele had been trying to make the same argument as you did, but Rush and his supporters whacked him on the nose for it and made him toe the line.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0309/19517.html

[fencerchica]

I don't hear the fascism claim thrown around any more seriously than it was against Bush.

You're kidding!!

2) How is this any different than liberal claims of conservatives turning us into a theocracy or similar silly rants? Don't you remember all the "kooky Bible nut" accusations and such during Bush?

Allegations of the Bush Administration's flirtations with the American Dominionist movement are less frivolous than you seem to think. Good grief, it's only been, what a month, since the news about the Rumsfeld defense memos came out! (I only single this out because it happens to be a particularly fresh revelation of the influence of conservative Christianity in the Bush White House.)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8056207.stm

OK, I can't resist, let me throw in one more link about the influence of the Dominionist movement on the Bush DOJ, old news in this case, but a particularly glaring example:

http://www.talk2action.org/story/2007/5/21/8329/01731

[Sins of the Fleche]

I think the timing is not the best for one to be dismissing Rush as an entity of little influence wrt the leadership of the GOP. It's only been a couple of months since the Chairman of the GOP himself apologized to Rush after offending him with a description of him as "an incendiary entertainer" -- Steele had been trying to make the same argument as you did, but Rush and his supporters whacked him on the nose for it and made him toe the line.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0309/19517.html

Ah, allow me to clarify. I think Rush and others of his political persuasion are still very powerful within the GOP. That being said, I don't think they speak for the mainstream Right.

I personally find that the GOP speaks with 2 voices nowadays. Voice 1 is the cautionary voice of the mainstream Right that doesn't like Big Government and its accompanying policies. Voice 2 shows the Rush Limbaugh influence in that they think that Obama is Emperor Palpatine. The mainstream Right is antsy about Obama's tax-and-spend rhetoric and intentions, the Rush Right....well, I'm not sure what they want from us.

[fencerchica]

You're not taking into account the eliminationism and anti-intellectualism that are currently and increasingly endemic to Republican rhetoric.

See my above post. DMC has been doing it as well. That they are better at hiding it does not make it okay.

Currently in the United States, creeping eliminationist rhetoric is a fairly exclusively right-wing phenomenon. What particularly worries me is the way in which it's been covered in a cloak of legitimacy and drawn further and further into the the respectable area of discourse. (Overton Window, anyone?) The way in which rhetoric over the issue of illegal immigration was ratcheted up during the 2008 campaign cycle is a perfect example, as has been the backlash over the assassination of Dr. Tiller, more recently.

To understand what I mean when I complain about what I see as a right-wing American embrace of creeping eliminationism, I recommend this as a starting point:

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2007/03...-appendix.html

p.s. I will grant that there are left-wing examples such as Wanda Sykes' distasteful and arguably hateful remarks at the correspondents' dinner, but my point is that that incident does not fall into a pattern of behavior, let alone a pattern of behavior that's sanctioned from an institutional level -- much as Hauptman has been trying to explain.

[lindajdunn]

...the Rush Right....well, I'm not sure what they want from us.

I believe they want to back to the sixties. Not the real sixties, of course, but the sixties portrayed on television series such as Leave It To Beaver and Father Knows Best. A handful of them would prefer to take us back to Walton's Mountain.

[Bayou Bum]

I believe they want to back to the sixties. Not the real sixties, of course, but the sixties portrayed on television series such as Leave It To Beaver and Father Knows Best. A handful of them would prefer to take us back to Walton's Mountain.

The Waltons': A family trying to survive the Great Depression. Relying on each other, working together, helping each other, self reliant, involved in the community, strong work ethic, and strong faith. Working through life's problems without government assistance. No universal health care, no social security, no medicare, or government control. You bet, I would love to take us back to Walton's Mountain!

Goodnight

[I_luv_saber]

You're kidding!!

I don't hear the fascism claim thrown around any more seriously than it was against Bush.

You missed that part

Allegations of the Bush Administration's flirtations with the American Dominionist movement are less frivolous than you seem to think. Good grief, it's only been, what a month, since the news about the Rumsfeld defense memos came out! (I only single this out because it happens to be a particularly fresh revelation of the influence of conservative Christianity in the Bush White House.)

About the same stretch as saying Obama is leading us to socialism...

Socializing things, yes; socialism, no. Christian influence, yes; theocracy, no.

p.s. I will grant that there are left-wing examples such as Wanda Sykes' distasteful and arguably hateful remarks at the correspondents' dinner, but my point is that that incident does not fall into a pattern of behavior, let alone a pattern of behavior that's sanctioned from an institutional level -- much as Hauptman has been trying to explain.

I understand what you're trying to explain, I simply disagree. I've provided counter examples of not only "fringe elements" radical statements, but it coming from the institutional level as well. If you'd like I can come up with some more statements from Democrats calling those Republicans they are running against "Nazis". It's just as common as the Republicans calling Democrats "Socialists" or relating them to terrorists. "Fascist" gets thrown both directions, and I kinda scoff at liberals taking offense at it now when not long ago Bush was being smeared with it.

I think Democrats just take a different approach and are better at making sure it doesn't get shouted from the media hilltops. Again I point to the Gore statement (because it's the easiest to show my point). You and I both know if Bush had said similar he'd be attacked in the media for it. I never heard a whisper of what Gore said in the news. I imagine most people had to Google it to know what I was talking about.

Oh, and if we're going to relate Rush to the GOP as a "mainstream voice", let's throw Franken into that mess as well (one who actually is holding office!). You don't need to Google too far to find smearing from there that's on par with Rush.

I don't associate myself with either party, but this really does sound like the left trying to write off statements that their side is making in order to feel like their boys and girls are "cleaner" rather than admit they have radicals as well (on the institutional level we're talking of) and move on.

This whole thing reeks of double standard. (Which, btw, the right is more than guilty of as well)

[Bayou Bum]

As I begin this July 4th and think of the courage of the men and women who died and risked everything during the revolution, I can't help but be saddened by the knowledge that most of the posters on this board would not have been on the side of the colonists fighting for independence, or how many here today are willing to give up individual freedoms in exchange for government control over your life and well being and a redistribution of wealth from those you envy. So, please don't insult the memory of the founders of this once great country by pretending to celebrate the very independence you so eagerly surrender and wish to take from the rest of us. May 1st is a more appropriate holiday now for your celebration. Don't wave the flag on July 4th only to burn it the other 364 days of the year.

[Shi no Tenshi]

I'm sorry Bayou Bum, but you are pathetic with comments like that. I'm going to do the snooty thing and just pity you. I pity you because you are so ignorant that you can't even understand how silly you are. But it's ok, I'll still let you eat the dirt while you play in the sandbox. Just watch out for the parasites.

I luv sabre, I would just like to say that I agree with you on almost all aspects you are pointing out. The rhetoric that was thrown around the past 8 years against Bush was just as bad. However, it is unfortunate that there are some better placed to be crazy people from the right that are better at having their voices projected. They tend to get their remarks publicized easier, which makes them seem as if they are worse. In a way, they are. But in other ways, they really are no worse.

I have been quite disappointed with MSNBC myself, and find it sad that CNN with it's ireports and other retardedness is the best of the big 3. Of course, that's why I tend to get my American coverage from the BBC, because they at least don't have a stake in their slant. FOX and MSNBC seem to think being obnoxious is the best way to get ratings, and they are obnoxious in a way that panders to their respective audiences. Then CNN decides it's a grand idea to go and pander in an entirely different fashion, by giving anybody with twitchy fingers and a camera access to put their blathering on TV.

All I personally want from the news networks is to have a set time of day when they will put aside the pandering, and report the news happening, and an honest take on it from their point of view. I like hearing all the different points of view, in a rational form. It's sad that there are crazy asses like Glenn Beck that are allowed to act like a Manic Bipolar off their meds to a national audience, and then have people defend them because they are on their side. Whatever happened to actually having morals? Integrety seems to have went out the window in preference to some messed up nationalistic stance. It's like the family that has a corrupt brother, but they keep covering for him, enabling him to see just how many atrocities he can commit before he eventually dies off.

For all the preaching some do, they seem to forget some of the basic teachings one can glean from the various moral books out there, including the Bible itself. I'm saying this as a person who does not care to go to church himself, but has a pretty religious family and background.

I guess, all I want is the blatant pettiness and self-serving to back off. It's unfortunate that we have fools such as Bayou Bum and TDD to show us how idiotic their perspective can be when taking to an extreme, but I myself don't care much for the other side of idiocy either. We just don't really have any good examples of that around here....thank God.

[I_luv_saber]

Happy 4th

[Sins of the Fleche]

Happy 4th

Seconded.

[treehugginfencer]

I think Reverend Wright had it right: God DAMN America. We should be ashamed of ourselves and let government straighten us out

[thereom4]

I think Reverend Wright had it right: God DAMN America. We should be ashamed of ourselves and let government straighten us out

Wow. I don't know what to say. Do I say anything or do I pretend like I didn't read this? Hunh.........decisions, decisions.

About your sig: Magical negro? Just wow. I should be offended but I laughed so.......

Oh and....welcome back.

[Hauptman]

Wow. I don't know what to say. Do I say anything or do I pretend like I didn't read this? Hunh.........decisions, decisions.

About your sig: Magical negro? Just wow. I should be offended but I laughed so.......

Oh and....welcome back.

Don't forget that the ignore list is your friend.