Basic Safety

[Superscribe]

At the risk of starting another complete trainwreck, i'm going to start another thread about the poor polish boy who was hurt. I'm going to try and word it in such a way that it doesn't become such a train wreck.

Is anyone else really curious about what kind of jacket the boy was wearing? I heard it was allstar, but i'm not sure.

I feel like knowing where he was hit (straight on the material or on the seams) is important. Further, maybe the age of the jacket might be good to know, as well as the exact material used. Some fibers degrade faster than others.

I don't accept "oh, well the broken blade hit him in the seams" as a good excuse, because i know that extra effort can be made to make seams stronger in the first place.

Should the seams be made stronger? I'd be willing to pay more or stronger seams. it doesn't seem technologically impossible.

From a governing body's perspective, does it make more sense to allow manufacturers to make a jacket that was 500N rated EVERYWHERE, instead of 800N some places and considerably less in other places? That might help make more sense from a cost perspective.

[Craig]

It seems to be a risk/reward argument. The plastron is in place specifically as a redundant protective measure. The extra layer of material is what helps to prevent serious injury or death.

Always wear a plastron should be the key takeaway.

Craig

[Superscribe]

Why the 800N then?

Hypothetical and simple example. Lets say with a reasonable safety of factor, we know that 900N (in test situations it's shown that 600N will do) will stop a broken blade. If we're going to say that you have to wear a plastron, and plastrons have to be 350N why don't we just have the limit on jackets be 550N everywhere, instead of a 800N on some parts, and an undefined amount on others? I think that this is a reasonable solution for manufacturers to adopt.

The performance specifications on a foil lame seem to be more stringent than the safety specs on a jacket.

[nahouw]

Originally Posted by Craig

It seems to be a risk/reward argument. The plastron is in place specifically as a redundant protective measure. The extra layer of material is what helps to prevent serious injury or death.

Always wear a plastron should be the key takeaway.

Craig is right. The point is the plastron serves as the redundant system in case of failure of the primary system. The seams are a possible point of failure, as well as the age of the material. You will also notice that the way that the plastron is constructed that it has different place of its seams so that neither the jacket and the plastron have seams that match up.

I once had an old non-FIE jacket and had someone put the point of their epee through my sleeve -- it wasn't anywhere near the seam, just that the jacket was old.

[Phrogger]

I noticed in the previous thread a lot of suggestions for referees to be more vigilant in checking equipment. It is also important for coaches to enforce safety and for older fencers to set the example. Even during lessons. It's likely that this wasn't the first time the fencer had gone without plastron, perhaps even the coach or peers in his club saw him do it. The referee is the last line of defense here, following the rules is the first.

[dberke]

This raises an interesting question... what is the expected lifespan of an FIE jacket? Of course it will vary by brand and how well it's maintained, but assuming it's well-kept (washed weekly, etc.), how long should one expect? Three years? Five? More, less?

Is there any way to test the jacket (without destroying it) to see if it still is up to the 800N spec? Or can we only rely on a visual inspection?

Dan

[Rockstar44]

Originally Posted by Superscribe

Why the 800N then?

Hypothetical and simple example. Lets say with a reasonable safety of factor, we know that 900N (in test situations it's shown that 600N will do) will stop a broken blade. If we're going to say that you have to wear a plastron, and plastrons have to be 350N why don't we just have the limit on jackets be 550N everywhere, instead of a 800N on some parts, and an undefined amount on others? I think that this is a reasonable solution for manufacturers to adopt.

The performance specifications on a foil lame seem to be more stringent than the safety specs on a jacket.

I think that you are missing the point of wearing a plastron. FIE rules require it to be 800n so that if the jacket fails, you still have 800n of protection from the blade. It's not the value of the two added together.

And, yeah, we can all argue exactly what the N rating should be or what the actual minimum is, but the idea is to maintain the same level of protection in case of a jacket failure, be it 350 or 800.

[Rockstar44]

I wish that the particulars of this accident would be released. I am sure that the investigation is finished. Why does the FIE withold this info for so long? Remember the incident last year (Venezuela, I think) where the Epee fencer lost an eye. It took MONTHS for any real information to get down to the fencers' level. Having the information on accidents such as these makes us all safer.

[Jason]

Originally Posted by Rockstar44

I wish that the particulars of this accident would be released. I am sure that the investigation is finished. Why does the FIE withold this info for so long? Remember the incident last year (Venezuela, I think) where the Epee fencer lost an eye. It took MONTHS for any real information to get down to the fencers' level. Having the information on accidents such as these makes us all safer.

What particulars are you looking for?
It's already been released that a blade broke and pierced his jacket, and that he wasn't wearing an underarm protector.

I can tell you from a quick read of the Polish fencing site that it happened in Warsaw on February 6th during practice. It was an epee bout. The kid's name was Konrad Kulik.

I'm not really sure what other details from the incident you'd really need.

[chinbeard]

Originally Posted by Jason

What particulars are you looking for?
It's already been released that a blade broke and pierced his jacket, and that he wasn't wearing an underarm protector.

I can tell you from a quick read of the Polish fencing site that it happened in Warsaw on February 6th during practice. It was an epee bout. The kid's name was Konrad Kulik.

I'm not really sure what other details from the incident you'd really need.

Was the jacket 350 or 800? How old was it, and in what condition? Do we actually know that it went through the seams?

[antoinette]

I agree that the outcome of this cautionary tale is to wear a plastron. On advice here I got a FIE Negrini, but I know that quite a number of people in my adult class are not wearing plastrons. It might be a good reminder for clubs and coaches to check/remind their members.

The thing about the seams is interesting, but I would hazard a guess that a blade is as likely to pierce a non-seam area as a seam. Unless the seam were very badly sewn ... and my guess is that jackets that are rated 350N or 800N would be sewn well to a certain standard with tough thread (also specified quality). Having sewn for years and worked to take out well-sown seams many many times, it's not easy, even when you're deliberately cutting the thread. I speak from experience in making a small alteration on my 350N jacket (LP), and it was NOT an easy job to unpick the thread.

Seems to me that worrying about the failure to use plastrons is of more use than worrying about seams. I'm open to hear about actual testing of seams, however, from people who have the data ... !

[erooMynohtnA]

Originally Posted by chinbeard

Was the jacket 350 or 800? How old was it, and in what condition? Do we actually know that it went through the seams?

How will personally having this information make you safer?

[Jason]

Originally Posted by chinbeard

Was the jacket 350 or 800? How old was it, and in what condition? Do we actually know that it went through the seams?

Who exactly would you expect to have that information? And what would you even do with it once you had it?

No one says that either a 350 or 800N jacket of any age is enough to protect you against a broken blade. That's why there are rules about wearing underarm protectors.

The age and quality of the jacket is as immaterial as what kind of t-shirt he was wearing since he wasn't wearing the piece of equipment designed specifically to protect against exactly this kind of accident.

Edit: Anthony is faster than me...

[chinbeard]

Originally Posted by erooMynohtnA

How will personally having this information make you safer?

If it broke through 800n material itself (and not the seam), and the material was in good condition, then I'd be curious to find out whether or not a single 800n plastron would have actually saved him. If the answer to that is "no," then I might go out and buy another plastron for 2400n protection.

[antoinette]

What about, rather than look at clothing, we look at the blade? Is it possible to make blades that would not break? Is that technology being developed?

[gladius]

Originally Posted by Craig

Always wear a plastron should be the key takeaway.

Craig

This is the key indeed. Never fence in practice without a plastron.

The uniform was Allstar 800 N and the blade was manufactured in 1996 but broke without shard. In other words the material was as required.

As to the point of penetration it appears that it was through the material since the Polish delegate did not make any reference to seams. The entry point was just above the elbow crease at the biceps. The epee stump did slide along the inside of the arm and penetrated in the armpit area.

Dr. Fiore's supposition is that the only possible cause of death was a damage to the armpit artery and consequent hemorrhage. The fact that there wasn't a suitable hospital nearby contributed to the tragedy. In other words, with prompt and appropriate emergency medical care the fencer would probably have survived.

For more information contact:

Jacek BIERKOWSKI
FIE MEdical Commission Delegate (POL)
Email: j.bierkowski@pzszerm.pl

[Dev]

Originally Posted by antoinette

What about, rather than look at clothing, we look at the blade? Is it possible to make blades that would not break? Is that technology being developed?

Alas, our human hands seem inadequate to the task of altering the properties of metal fatigue.

Maybe if we made them out of rubber...

[antoinette]

Originally Posted by Dev

Alas, our human hands seem inadequate to the task of altering the properties of metal fatigue.

Maybe if we made them out of rubber...

Never say never (to altering metal fatigue ...). But I'm a historian!

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Not every accident has been with a broken blade. RuthAnn Hacking had a sabre blade in a whole lot of her forearm without the blade breaking.

Blades breaking can actually be good. If you push a blade against somethin long and hard enough, either it eventually goes through or breaks. The break often gives a very different feel and many react by stopping dead in their tracks.

The trick is that we don't want blades to break too often, and we want them to break cleanly (and in a flat manner) rather than jagged. There has been research done into both. More can always be done, but this angle of the problem has been looked at.

[badpenny]

Don't assume a plastron would have helped. Sure, wear your plastron, but honestly, this sport isn't 100% safe even if you do everything properly.

Nearly 20 years ago I suffered a very similar accident. I was wearing my plastron and it didn't do squat.

I was fencing for 3rd place in the Great Lakes Tourney, vs. a very quick young man from Notre Dame (Ironically from Poland, btw). I pushed him to the end of the strip and feinted to draw his fleche, at which point I made a small retreat + disengage and let him fall onto my blade. Thing was, his epee tip hit my bell guard, buckled, then snapped about 2 inches from the tip. Since he was pretty fast, and his weapon shot out from the stored energy of the buckle, the blade ended up on my bicept, where it pushed the material from my plastron up my shoulder. I have a small scar over my bicept from the blade slicing me thre. The blade then went in my shoulder when the bunched up material wouldn't stretch anymore, just above the bicept, and slid in about 6 inches, puncturing my lung. Luckily, I was rushed to the hospital in South Bend, where they revived me when my lung collapsed.

Moral of the story: Fencing in dangerous, you can wear all the appropriate clothing, fencing properly with control, and still get killed. Unless you had magic eyes that could detect a carbon flaw in the tip of your opponents weapon, there was no prior warning of what happened.

So don't blame this poor dead kid for what happened, fencing is dangerous.