Fencing Fatality in Poland

[fatfencer]

So person A says we don't need to punch test masks 10 times a season.

Person B says we do.

Somebody dies from not wearing a plastron.

Person B says "TOLD YA SO!!!"

....um...

What did I miss here?

Thank you for asking so nicely. The answer is that safety is safety and rules are there to be followed for a purpose. that purpose is simple. To not die.

Fatfencer

[Purple Fencer]

Thank you for asking so nicely. The answer is that safety is safety and rules are there to be followed for a purpose. that purpose is simple. To not die.

Fatfencer

Indeed....I told any number of fencers at the pentathlon to wear the head strap correctly....on their HEAD, not over the tongue of the mask (the worst offenders were from Guatamala, but I had to tell at least one member of OUR Olympic team...and on looking at the Beijing footage, I saw she was wearing it wrong there as well....don't know why the refs don't enforce it).

We ended up making a general PA announcement about it during the women's event on Saturday. The fencing staff was asked to write up impressions about the event....one of the things I'll be mentioning is the admonishment for fencers AND refs to ensure the strap is worn correctly.

[telkanuru]

Indeed....I told any number of fencers at the pentathlon to wear the head strap correctly....on their HEAD, not over the tongue of the mask (the worst offenders were from Guatamala, but I had to tell at least one member of OUR Olympic team...and on looking at the Beijing footage, I saw she was wearing it wrong there as well....don't know why the refs don't enforce it).

We ended up making a general PA announcement about it during the women's event on Saturday. The fencing staff was asked to write up impressions about the event....one of the things I'll be mentioning is the admonishment for fencers AND refs to ensure the strap is worn correctly.

You continue to admonish, save lives, and toot your own horn. However, please have the courtesy not to do it here.

PS- the fact that you have support from a certain camp is NOT IN YOUR FAVOR.

[pinkelephant]

This is the most offensive thread I have ever read on this forum.

[Gav]

Why is everyone going on about masks when the kid died with a broken blade in the armpit?

I know I only studied Biology at university level but...

[fatfencer]

Why is everyone going on about masks when the kid died with a broken blade in the armpit?

I know I only studied Biology at university level but...

taking the mic out on telk/whtouche, etc....no biggie.

FF

[Redblade]

The usual petty argument between two perspectives: Safety is an all-or-nothing issue, and safety is a sliding scale that depends on circumstance for appropriate behavior. ... Wearing protective gear in all fencing activity because it's too risky to play the odds, versus wearing only enough protective gear to compensate for what you're doing because any more is unnecessary effort and worry.

Psychology has terms for those two belief systems; darned if I can remember what they are. They sure do engender a lot of friction and anger, though.

[Mergs]

This is true... France is closer and historically they pretty much collapse and say 'come have some Brie with us.'

I love the French for this.... they bring civility to Europe....and great cuisine.

Actually, this is in line with my old roommate's theory of German Gastro-aggression. Every other generation or so, they invade France in search of a good meal!

On a serious note, though. IIRC, Smirnov is the only competition related death or serious injury. Everything else, to include the failed mask that resulted in someone almost loosing an eye (search for the thread on it; happened in Houston about 6 -7 years ago), happened during practice.

In the eighties, the Army hammered into us "Train as you will fight", which meant that if you were going to put a tank ditch in front of your positions, then you better had dig it (providing you were at the National Training Center, and not out on the 'economy' in Germany!) so that you knew what it took to do it. Which, imho, is the attitude that should be taken for practices. Which includes someone to wander around the salle to make sure folks are properly attired and fencing safely. One would think that from a liability stand point this would make even more sense.

That said, it is also interesting to note that, to my knowledge, there hasn't been any American fencing deaths. Couldn't be the likes of Sam or others doing, now could it?

[piste off]

Isn't the real question that their should be saftey standards in training as well as comps?

For example, how many clubs enforce the use of plastrons?

R-

[TBean]

Mine. It is certainly ground into the children, their parents and adult beginners that they must be in full uniform when you are planning to hit someone - it would not occur to any of us to fence without a plastron. New fencers are told the club-rules, and adult members of the club help enforce it. If we see someone dressing without a plastron, we'll show them where the club gear is so they can borrow one for the evening. Do we get everyone - no - but certainly we try. That is what we do
.

[D'Art]

On a serious note, though. IIRC, Smirnov is the only competition related death or serious injury. Everything else, to include the failed mask that resulted in someone almost loosing an eye (search for the thread on it; happened in Houston about 6 -7 years ago), happened during practice.

Nope. The Ukrainian kid a few years ago was in a competition, but I can't remember if it was Regional or National level.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

The usual petty argument between two perspectives: Safety is an all-or-nothing issue, and safety is a sliding scale that depends on circumstance for appropriate behavior. ... Wearing protective gear in all fencing activity because it's too risky to play the odds, versus wearing only enough protective gear to compensate for what you're doing because any more is unnecessary effort and worry.

Psychology has terms for those two belief systems; darned if I can remember what they are. They sure do engender a lot of friction and anger, though.

No one is claiming that a plastron shouldn't be worn. I mean, people might argue about whether it's more important to buy an FIE plastron or jacket first if you can only buy one, but no one is arguing that safety gear shouldn't be worn.

People have argued:
A) that the role of socks as safety gear is minimal and may be overstated, and that the role they play is more decorative than safety related, even if there are some safety gains. And, furthermore, if people think that safety is so important for the kneesock area, why are we all still wearing normal kneesocks, and shouldn't we be developing something safer?

B) that testing masks is important, should be done on any questionable mask, and all masks at least a couple times a year. But by arguing it ought to be punched before every competition, you beg the question why not before every bout, or every touch? The mask test does slightly degrade the mask, which is not a big deal if you do it a couple times a year, and would become more meaningful if done before every touch.


So the argument is about how much safer certain gear (socks) makes us, and how much safer (or not) testing masks more regularly is, and what the ideal rate of testing is (we can all agree that it's more than "never" and less than "more than once a touch").

The real crux of the issue is that Purple feels personal responsibility to help prevent any risk of injury he can, and seems to also insinuate that others who do not do as he does may be causing injury. Others feel that some of what he does, while it hurts no one, is excessive, and don't care to do so themselves.

[Lemberg]

Nope. The Ukrainian kid a few years ago was in a competition, but I can't remember if it was Regional or National level.

I was just going to say. It was large a national competition, akin the Junior Olympics in the States (at least based on my limited understanding of what the JO's are). The kid was fencing foil and I believe penetration occured in the armpit/chest area as well.

Absolutely horryfying... a 17-year old dead from fencing... and all some of you jerks care about is being proven "right."

[Zilverzmurfen]

Depending on where else you decide to invade, you could have tea, rice, chocolate, wine, cheese.... all sorts of yummy things.

I think you forgot to mention oil...

[fatfencer]

For the record, I AM very sad for that young Polish dude. But frankly some of the people on this thread need to realize that:

1) An 'accident' resulting in death where one didn't do absolutely every thing one could do to prevent it isn't an accident any more. Looking at my moral compass, thats something akin to negligent homicide. Even if it isnt legally so... it IS so. We lend our bodies and our well being to one another to practice, have fun, and compete in good faith. If a mask punch or a plastron can prevent catastrophic failure by diagnosis then it MUST be, not should be our ought be... but MUST be done

2) Death doesnt just affect the one person. It affects everyone. Does anyone remember Meade Anderson? Dude had his whole life ahead of him. Died on a SKATEBOARD or some such craziness. Death by tragic silliness. Horrible. Dunno what the circumstances were but a pure accident is so tragic.

Now imagine if, instead of a skateboard he died on the strip because of some armorer decidng it was ok NOT to test, or if the ref didnt check for plastron. you'd see that official climb inside a bottle for a LOOOOOOONG time.

In atlanta I witnessed a vet womans fencer severely injured on the strip, blood from her neck everywhere. No equipment failure if I recall correctly. So accidents happen even when everything is done corectly. Don't add to it by failing to do your duty.

Meanwhile what of the family and friends of that Polish fencer? Or Smirnov, or yes, even guys like telk/whtouche. Hard to imagine but odds are, somebody's stupid enough to love those useless little *****es. What if something happened to one of those two clowns on the strip? Me personally I'd laugh my ass off. But what of the repercussions to the USFA? In an era where its hard to retain new fencers, do we want that kind of publicity?

The point is horribly simple. Check the mask at least daily at an event, wear the appropriate equipment, or risk DYING.

Fatfencer

[vivoescrimare]

So person A says we don't need to punch test masks 10 times a season.

Person B says we do.

Somebody dies from not wearing a plastron.

Person B says "TOLD YA SO!!!"

....um...

What did I miss here?

Everything posted by Fatfencer that explains/exemplifies his "character" umm....ever?

[TooLoftheDeviL]

If you lot continue down this course of action, with the bickering and namecalling in this thread, you'll regret it.

[vivoescrimare]

In general - There is nothing good about this tragedy's occurence. Accidents do happen, and it is horrible and sad that, in this instance, this crisis could not be averted or corrected.

That being said, I feel that arguing about "Safety Control" is pretty pointless. This wasn't a tournament, even at the local level, it was a practice. The bottom line is that all the safety valves in the world will NOT STOP some people from practicing with bad masks, without plastrons, or even without wearing basic safety gear. I've definitely seen a sabre fencer practice in a waistcut sabre jacket and no knickers. The danger inherent in this practice seems implicit.

Equipment control can do only so much (And, IMO, does what it can well and to the benefit of all fencers.) Please understand that I am not faulting the Polish fencers in question when I say that the responsibility for your safety as a fencer RESTS ON YOU.

By all means, take this tragedy and learn from it - protect YOURSELVES by wearing all the appropriate safety gear every time you fence. Please, however, show some respect and STOP using this terrible incident to snipe about old peripherally related arguments that ended months ago. At the very least, start a new thread.

[fatfencer]

I just couldnt resist tearing into those two. Please continue with the thread. We should all go back to commiserating...

FF

[erooMynohtnA]

For the record, I AM very sad for that young Polish dude. But frankly some of the people on this thread need to realize that:

1) An 'accident' resulting in death where one didn't do absolutely every thing one could do to prevent it isn't an accident any more. Looking at my moral compass, thats something akin to negligent homicide. Even if it isnt legally so... it IS so. We lend our bodies and our well being to one another to practice, have fun, and compete in good faith. If a mask punch or a plastron can prevent catastrophic failure by diagnosis then it MUST be, not should be our ought be... but MUST be done

2) Death doesnt just affect the one person. It affects everyone. Does anyone remember Meade Anderson? Dude had his whole life ahead of him. Died on a SKATEBOARD or some such craziness. Death by tragic silliness. Horrible. Dunno what the circumstances were but a pure accident is so tragic.

Now imagine if, instead of a skateboard he died on the strip because of some armorer decidng it was ok NOT to test, or if the ref didnt check for plastron. you'd see that official climb inside a bottle for a LOOOOOOONG time.

In atlanta I witnessed a vet womans fencer severely injured on the strip, blood from her neck everywhere. No equipment failure if I recall correctly. So accidents happen even when everything is done corectly. Don't add to it by failing to do your duty.

Meanwhile what of the family and friends of that Polish fencer? Or Smirnov, or yes, even guys like telk/whtouche. Hard to imagine but odds are, somebody's stupid enough to love those useless little *****es. What if something happened to one of those two clowns on the strip? Me personally I'd laugh my ass off. But what of the repercussions to the USFA? In an era where its hard to retain new fencers, do we want that kind of publicity?

The point is horribly simple. Check the mask at least daily at an event, wear the appropriate equipment, or risk DYING.

Fatfencer

So would you fence someone who was wearing a mask that didn't comply with every USFA safety rule?