Fencing.net Instructional Videos - Foil Point in Line

[prototoast]

You sure you don't mean point AND line?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkjPExr0tJ4

I think what bothers me more than the fact that those guys don't know what they're doing is the fact that they didn't bother to rehearse or edit their video.

[erooMynohtnA]

Here is a fun one:

Call this one PIL-15

Craig

Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu-

[vivoescrimare]

Here is a fun one:

Call this one PIL-15

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdthpL98JFk

Craig

Attack left - off target. Counter attack right. No touch. :P (Edited - had my sound off, didn't notice the click off the mask.)

[Craig]

Attack left - no. Counter attack right. Touch right. :P

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdthpL98JFk[/youtube]

Left did hit the mask bib.

Craig

[TooLoftheDeviL]

Attack left - no. Counter attack right. Touch right. :P

Hard to see since it doesn't stick, but I actually hit him on the bib in that action. I remember thinking, "If only he was wearing a mask with a conductive bib..."

[CMiner]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdthpL98JFk

Left did hit the mask bib.

Craig

Didn't see the off target till it was mentioned, had my speakers off too.

Still, PIL for the right. It is clearly established before Left's attack, the only question is whether or not the ducking invalidates it.

I don't think it does since the arm remains straight with the tip continually threatening target, and there is no (that I saw) parry by Left, it continues to fulfill the definition of a PIL. The body moves, but the arm remains in relatively the same position without a break of the extension or significant movement of the tip. I don't see the ducking down as any more invalidating than if Right had stood up, or retreated, or advanced.

Yes/No?

[keith]

Still, PIL for the right. It is clearly established before Left's attack, the only question is whether or not the ducking invalidates it.

Well the hand drops a foot or more with the squat - not a degree of movement that would normally allow you to maintain PiL. Of course the hand drops no more than if right had lunged (or reverse lunged). So we come back to what the rules say about how the attack may be delivered as the only form of guidance. No mention of squat, or even squat lunge in there.

[mrbiggs]

Here is a fun one:

Call this one PIL-15

Seems to me like this is one of those cases where it's theoretically PiL right, but the motion of right's body makes it extremely difficult to maintain a straight line, so the action will often be touch left.

That said, I can't see any sort of bend or motion in right's arm, so I don't see a reason why it wouldn't be his line. The rulebook says nothing about the position or motion of the body during PiL, so as long as his arm is in the correct position (looks like it is to me), he should still have right of way.

I'd be interested to hear the "correct" call from one of the more experienced refs here.

[Sinestra]

I just have to say this is probably one of the best threads I've ever seen on this site, and offer a tremendous thank-you to everyone who has contributed to these videos and this discussion. As a fencer acutely interested in being a competent ref, I have to say that this is being unbelievably helpful.

[Craig]

Seems to me like this is one of those cases where it's theoretically PiL right, but the motion of right's body makes it extremely difficult to maintain a straight line, so the action will often be touch left.

That said, I can't see any sort of bend or motion in right's arm, so I don't see a reason why it wouldn't be his line. The rulebook says nothing about the position or motion of the body during PiL, so as long as his arm is in the correct position (looks like it is to me), he should still have right of way.

Nailed it.

I feel dirty calling it for the right, but the PiL is maintained throughout (at least that was what we were going for.)

Once established correctly, the point in line only loses priority if it is parried, it is withdrawn (removed by bending the wrist or elbow) or misses.

This is one of those clips that would be very rare to spot in the wild.

Craig

[erooMynohtnA]

I feel dirty calling it for the right, but the PiL is maintained throughout (at least that was what we were going for.)

Yes, this is the problem.

I agree that right's line is never broken.

However, I would never call it for the right.

You are causing major cognitive dissonance.

[Craig]

Here is another PiL situation:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOzNuCA6XAg[/YOUTUBE]

Craig

[CMiner]

Here is another PiL situation:

Craig

Touch right.

From the Points of Emphasis letter: "The priority of the point in line is retained whether one advances, retreats, or lunges."



I've heard a lot of people say that it is anywhere from 'difficult' to 'nearly impossible' to maintain a PIL throughout/after a lunge. Why is this so? I can understand that if you're doing a flick, or coming in at an odd angle it wouldn't work, but just doing a straight lunge I'm usually able to maintain a straight line from my shoulder to tip if that's what I intend to do. Of course what I see as a straight line, and what the ref sees, are not necessarily one and the same.

[erooMynohtnA]

Q:

i've heard a lot of people say that it is anywhere from 'difficult' to 'nearly impossible' to maintain a pil throughout/after a lunge. Why is this so? I can understand that if you're doing a flick, or coming in at an odd angle it wouldn't work, but just doing a straight lunge i'm usually able to maintain a straight line from my shoulder to tip if that's what i intend to do.

a:

of course what i see as a straight line, and what the ref sees, are not necessarily one and the same.

[CMiner]

a:
Quote:
of course what i see as a straight line, and what the ref sees, are not necessarily one and the same.

So its difficult simply on making the ref see it/agree with it, rather than executing it properly?

[erooMynohtnA]

If the ref didn't see your arm as straight the whole time, you didn't execute it correctly. It is impossible to keep your arm perfectly straight, but you might have thought your arm was straighter than it really was when viewed from the side.

As a note, if you were to be on a strip with video replay, it would only make it worse, because replay accentuates every slight wobble.

[edew]

So it there a point at which you'd be able to counter-attack a finished attack in which the attacker leaves the blade out and actually get the touch? Is the PIL establised as soon as the attack is over, or do you still need that one tempo pause?

The PiL was established when the arm was straightened. The subsequent lunge does not invalidate the PiL. One may advance, retreat, squat, lunge, jump forward, jump backward, do the hokey-pokey (except for the part where you take your right hand out) and still maintain PiL. As long as the blade and the arm doesn't waver, of course. That's not an easy thing to do if you jump about, but as in the video clip, it's not that hard to do during a lunge.

The important part of a lunge with PiL is that the lunger better not make another effort to replace the blade back into a PiL. If that happens, then it's clear to the referee that the original PiL was lost and a new one was being established. In that case the "distance parry riposte" would have taken over the RoW.

[bigdawg2121]

I'm assuming he's referring to the situation in which the fencer attacks normally (finishing the extension w/ the completion of the lunge) and leaves the arm extended to establish line. Theoretically if you started an attack that was timed to begin right before the end of the lunge/finish of the extension and still leave the initial attack short your action would have RoW.
Difficulty of doing this: high.
Difficulty in actually seeing that this was done from the POv of your ref: Very very High

[Inquartata]

Those would be much more entertaining if they weren't quite so foil-centric...

Ahem.

[OROD]

I agree that right's line is never broken.

However, I would never call it for the right.

So we have a clear line from right, no attempt to beat the blade from left, he just lunges right into it, and... you would never call it for the right, even though you agree that the line is never broken???

Wow.