Referee question about stripside coaching

[milstdfarm]

Can anybody tell I'm studying for the ref exam? LOL

Anyway, last weekend I was asked to help referee at a 'non-USFA' tournament. I was glad to help, needed the practice. Since it wasn't USFA, no problem.

In one of the DE's, Fencer A's coach is giving him instructions. The coach always waits until after I call halt to speak and stops as soon as I say Fence. So far so good. But even after I call 'en guarde, ready' Fencer A has his head turned and is listening to the coach. Fencer A was in proper stance except for his head turned toward his coach. When I call 'Fence' he turns his head and begins.

I resisted the pressure to wait until the coach was done speaking to command, 'en guarde, ready, fence'. I just kept up my normal speed getting the fencers to the line and started.

I think what happened is within the rules but it was distracting to me and it appeared bother Fencer B. Did I do it correctly?

[LordShout]

At a USFA tourney that is patently out of line. Control your strip, and that means shoo'ing away the coach.

[catwood1]

At a USFA tourney that is patently out of line. Control your strip, and that means shoo'ing away the coach.

I think thats a bit much. You don't need to shoo away the coach. Definitely dont wait for the coach to be done talking to command fence. Go at your speed. He is definitely allowed to give advice between halt and fence. Granted, there is a point where it gets to be too much, but that point can be hard to describe without seeing it.

Just my .02...

[edew]

I'd say it could be more of a detriment to the fencer than to the opponent or to you or the bout in general. If the kid is not concentrating on the bout at hand and is busy listening to the coach, the coach is telling the kid too much (I know that from first hand...my fencers tell me to STFU, GBTW).

[erooMynohtnA]

At a USFA tourney that is patently out of line. Control your strip, and that means shoo'ing away the coach.

No, that is not the right answer. A coach can coach if he wants to coach.

If you determine the fencer is in the correct en garde: ready, fence. If the fencer is not in the correct en garde as determined by you, instruct him to get in it. If he habitually continues to come to an improper en garde, eventually card him (not the second time he ever does it, this is something to be lenient about). It is the fencer's responsibility to ignore his own coach. You wouldn't chase away an ice cream vendor because the fencer was hungry and kept looking at it or the box because someone kept turning to look at it after every touch.

If the coach is interfering with your instructions or what you think is the proper management of the bout, then warn him why what he is doing is wrong, and if he persists then it's threat/shooing/card time.

If the other fencer complains about the coaching that is happening, then you have to make a judgment call on whether the noise level, strip proximity, etc are appropriate or not. (Hint, if you didn't have a problem before, it's probably fine.)

[downunder]

I think thats a bit much. You don't need to shoo away the coach. Definitely dont wait for the coach to be done talking to command fence. Go at your speed. He is definitely allowed to give advice between halt and fence.

No, that is not the right answer. A coach can coach if he wants to coach.

Are you guys temporarily insane?

t.82.
3. Everybody taking part in or present at a fencing competition must
remain orderly and must not disturb the smooth running of the
competition. During bouts no one is allowed to go near the pistes,
to give advice to the fencers, to criticise the Referee or the judges,
to insult them or to attempt to influence them in any way. Even the
team captain must remain in the space assigned to him and he may
only intervene in the situations and in the manner provided for in
Article t.90 of the Rules. The Referee must stop immediately any
activity which disturbs the smooth running of the bout which he is
refereeing (cf. t.96.1–3)

[LordShout]

To clarify: I meant shoo him away before you call en garde, if you want to play the improper en garde game thats fine but its easier to prevent the issue by asking the coach to stop coaching when you say en garder.

"Sir, could you please stand back at the en garde call?"
"Ok"

Problem solved, strip controlled, no cards needed.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

If you determine the fencer is in the correct en garde: ready, fence. If the fencer is not in the correct en garde as determined by you, instruct him to get in it. If he habitually continues to come to an improper en garde, eventually card him (not the second time he ever does it, this is something to be lenient about). It is the fencer's responsibility to ignore his own coach.

I agree. A pointed look, an extra "en garde" said with the slightest hint of disbelief.... it goes a long way to getting the fencer back into the bout, and says to the coach "I do not appreciate this". If that does not work, saying something directly is the best approach, since they probably won't acknowledge subtle.

[rsy]

Are you guys temporarily insane?

No, the language of USFA rule on this is a bit different than the language of the FIE rule

t.82
Everybody taking part in or present at a fencing competition must remain orderly and must not disturb the smooth running of the competition. During bouts (between the command "Fence" and "Halt,") no one is allowed to go near the strips or to give advice to the fencers. At no time is one allowed to criticize the Officials or thier descisions, to insult them or to attempt to influence them in any way. Even the team captain must remain in the space assigned and may only intervene in the situations and in the manner provided for in Article t.90 of the Rules. The Referee must stop immediately any activity which disturbs the smooth running of the bout which he is refereeing (cf. t.96).

-r

[Purple Fencer]

I think the key phrase is "allowed to go near the strip." A coach certainly can't get up from his seat, position himself next to his fencer, and move up and down the strip with him, giving his advice.

That's quite different from what I usually see....shouting advice from where the coach is seated.....no different, really, than a teammate or friend doing the same thing.

[Superscribe]

Are you guys temporarily insane?

t.82.
3. Everybody taking part in or present at a fencing competition must
remain orderly and must not disturb the smooth running of the
competition. During bouts no one is allowed to go near the pistes,
to give advice to the fencers, to criticise the Referee or the judges,
to insult them or to attempt to influence them in any way. Even the
team captain must remain in the space assigned to him and he may
only intervene in the situations and in the manner provided for in
Article t.90 of the Rules. The Referee must stop immediately any
activity which disturbs the smooth running of the bout which he is
refereeing (cf. t.96.1–3)

Oh my goodness! Bolded words from the FIE! Well I guess that settles it, because quoting from the good book always settles disputes about rules around here. This is serious, indeed.

[erooMynohtnA]

Typically when it's from an FIE ref, it settles things pretty well.

I just think the rule is neither practiced nor practicable at small local tourneys.

[fdad]

I think the key phrase is "allowed to go near the strip." A coach certainly can't get up from his seat, position himself next to his fencer, and move up and down the strip with him, giving his advice.

That's quite different from what I usually see....shouting advice from where the coach is seated.....no different, really, than a teammate or friend doing the same thing.

I am having a Deja Vu experience, I predict an english lesson in your near future :-)

Read the responses to this message and you will understand why: Is NJ qualifiers went MAD?

[Superscribe]

Typically when it's from an FIE ref, it settles things pretty well.

I just think the rule is neither practiced nor practicable at small local tourneys.

so when a FIE ref speaks about, say, point in line, the thread doesn't continue for another 3 pages on f.net?

[telkanuru]

The thread is over. That doesn't mean it stops going...

[Superscribe]

touche

[downunder]

No, the language of USFA rule on this is a bit different than the language of the FIE rule[/I]

-r

that's weird. Is it enforced that way by your top referees?

[Allen Evans]

No...sometimes they don't even enforce OUR version of the rule.

But yes, by and large, in the US, our rule is the one enforced, and stripside coaching occurs quite often during the bout, except between "fence" and "halt".

AE

[Superscribe]

that's weird. Is it enforced that way by your top referees?

I don't think it's enforced by FIE referees. Looking through a couple of cyrus's video's, i notice there are several of foil fencing at the junior world cup level, which i'm interested in. You can hear Massialias screaming advice on the side lines. You can hear the Italians talking, too.

Given the lack of response from from the ref, I infer advice giving from coaches on the strip to be pretty commonplace and tolerated by "top referees". Perhaps some of the fencing experts could comment on how this is treated internationally.

My reasoning is that no advice giving during a bout is idealistic and not really enforced.

[Karinka]

On a related note....what should I have done?

I was fencing at the NAC in Atlanta....pool bouts. I was "pushing" the opponent to the end line, distracting her with blade work etc. It appeared the opponent had no idea how close she was to the end line. Just when she was about to step over, her Coach said..."Watch the end line". At that point, she stopped, and changed tactics. I'm reasonably sure if her coach hadn't warned her, I would have gotten her to cross the end line.

The ref did nothing. I'll admit, I'm too new to fencing to confront a ref/opponent....but I was upset at what had happened. What, if anything, should I have done?

Karinka
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Salute!