A lucid explanation of an earlier thread...

[I_luv_saber]

^ This.

[Phaeton]

I do not come to this forum to pick fights or to give anyone ****. What I posted wasn't intended as a personal attack or any kind of condescension but rather an explanation of what I see happening in this thread and several other threads I have read.

Where have you been. I've missed you.

Eh. The usual. Too busy to post. Fencing and making films. I've been good though.

Meanwhile I'm really, for the bajillionth time, NOT a bigot. BUT I will use racial slander when it is used against me. It's merely a tool. I could go another way. I'm actually very flexible. But there isnt one here who is argumentatively powerful enough to make me do so. Watch carefully, my threads don't digress because I do. Oh noo.... not ever. They actually go the way they do because people get bent out of shape when I say something too complex for them to be simplistic about and hurl the usual 'anti-Semite' or anti-(insert race here) line.

I honestly do not believe you actually are a bigot. But you come across as one. Issues like this have to be handled with sensitivity. Throw in any kind of racist banter, even when one is just joking, and that makes the opinions expressed in the entire thread seem worse than they actually are.

That's when I go ballistic. Go back and read, if you wish the original thread. But don't sit here lecture me when you havent read both threads and then attempt to pontificate. Get off your high horse. Gone for a year or no I have no desire to take **** from you or anyone, Jew or no.

The last time I dismounted a high horse it ended badly. I am far less graceful than I should be. That said, no I have not read the first thread, but I see what is going on in this one. I am not trying to talk **** or pontificate, but I am just calling things as I see them.


[quote]Oh please.... did she bribe you with fried chicken? They use pig grease for oil you know....[/quote

This is exactly what I was discussing earlier.

I'm going to cry I'm so happy. Seriously, No BS, no sarcasm, etc. FINALLY an honest Jew weighs in... Welcome to humanity. It's nice here.

That bothers me a bit. There are plenty of Jews with different believes than mine that are completely honest. Their beliefs are really heartfelt. And I can empathize. Probably one of the scariest moments (in an existential sense) in my life is when I planned to go to a Cafe in Israel that was bombed...and slept through my alarm clock. I was fine. That said as a person I am very far removed from the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. A lot of people I know have had family that has been injured or killed. A lot of people I know have friends with whom that is the case. Even more that have had family killed in conflict, whether it be Pogroms or the Holocaust. Israel is a state under siege, and Jews have taken quite a beating in their history. As a people, we have some deep seated issues. The Israeli right definitely has some valid points and a cohesive strategy. That strategy, IMHO, is not the optimal one.

There wasnt ONE Jew who felt as you did. They immediately, by and large, felt put upon and defensive rather than looking at things critically. Then, of course, there were the Non Jew Caucasian enablers of the group who you'd think just got back from liberating Auschwitz. So much white guilt that even when I have a legitimate perspective I get hatemail. From the Jews, one, of whom now fences in my club.... and is a real pushover in person. Quite a nice guy really. But behind the keyboard hes a raging force for uberJewdom....with a Red Cape and everything. Big chest protector with a thin patina from the Temple of Solomon.

You really should not be getting hate mail. I don't, however, think that it is fair to extrapolate your experience with him to the entire Jewish community. There are plenty of people that are not hardliners within the Jewish community and Israel as a whole.

The religious right definately has a lot of support for Israel. Many Jews are very thankful for this. I don't know how I feel about it. It is a bit underhanded. A lot of support from those in the Religious Right comes from people who think that Israel must exist for the Second Coming to arrive...so all the Jews can go to hell. Oh well.

I'm not here to convince anyone I'm a badass. But time and again I hear that fencing is a martial art from those people who've practiced martial arts regularly for less than 4 years...


Fencing is NOT an MA.

I do not think fencing is an MA. I know next to thing about Martial Arts and really to not place too judge skill. That said someones skill in MA is not a major factor in my opinion of them. I just think it is a bid odd you revert back to MA discussion in a thread that has NOTHING to do with MA.

You'd think after being on this forum for 6 years itd be obvious I give better than I get and IN THE MANNER with which I am treated. I see no reason to change this to please the like of you, or anyone. I'm here because it pleases me to be so. Don't hang your dead meat on me.

You don't have to please anyone. But you aren't convincing them either. Look, I am not saying I know the best way to do things, or that I am right, but I just observe that you are turning people off of what you say. That is all.

You are too smart to say something so dumb. If something is true, its true. EVEN if Inq says it.

I believe this as well, although I do not always agree with your view of truth. That said, I am a firm believer that certain things must be told in a tactful way that takes other people into account. Blunt honesty is not the best way to accomplish things all the time.

PS: Small quibble... but phallus has two "l"s.

Well. My auto-correct be damned. That's what I had typed. Then A-spell whined at me.

You are still lame. And yes I did win. I've claimed that victory a while back now. I'm pretty much just using you for entertainment at this point.

That you've resorted to making personal attacks on a person you've never met and will never have the pleasure of meeting, using lame stereotypes, means you lose. (see: ad hominem fallacy)

Note those words I've put in bold. You are a hypocrite. I don't believe you. You need more people.

Being a hypocrite does not make someone wrong. That's another form of ad hominem. Honestly, resorting to a logical fallacy doesn't automatically mean failure. It means that line of argumentation is invalid. Saying: YOU LOSE always bothers me a bit.

[phillipmj]

but people should have a long time ago ceased passing tissues to somebody openly masturbating.

LOL. Definite rep.

[jeff]

one, of whom now fences in my club.... and is a real pushover in person. Quite a nice guy really. But behind the keyboard hes a raging force for uberJewdom....with a Red Cape and everything. Big chest protector with a thin patina from the Temple of Solomon.

I've avoided this thread because it's a disgusting toilet, but now post because I imagine the above must be about me. Yes, I now fence at the same club as FF, such is my luck. Of course, he misrepresents my position in a disrespectful way. (I don't wear a chest protector either. I beat fatfencer by a wide margin whenever we fence, so at least there's some consolation.)

Tony is reasonably nice in person, and it was priceless to see the look on his face when I explained to him that I was the 'jeff' from f.net. However, on the net he's not nice at all. I was going to wait till I saw him at the club to tell him "I am going to shun you, since I don't want to associate with people who behave as you do". I think it's better to say that kind of thing face to face, but I haven't seen him there for weeks, so here it is. I'll fence and be polite, but that's about it.

Let's call things by their proper names: if you race-bait, or gay-bait, say you dislike or mistrust particular ethnic groups or minorities, attribute behaviors to entire grops, or refer to others by repeating derogatory stereotypes, then you are a bigot - or are at least pretending to be one. The OP's link to somebody who proudly proclaims himself to be a bigot has the effect of publishing hate speech, and the following posts, go far past the line of what is acceptable. This is not a "near thing". This is blatant. There's no point arguing with a bigot over the points of his racism. He'll just respond with rationalizations for all the reasons his bigotry is reasonable and factual. Better to ignore such people, and shun them from polite company.

That said, I agree with pigeonmeister. It's not clear at all that fatfencer really believes everything he says here. I have word from people who know him that he just really enjoys pissing people off, and will offend them because he enjoys it. That shouldn't be a surprise, because he's as much as said so here on the board. You can't get into a name calling fight with someone who enjoys this kind of thing - it's like mud-wrestling with a pig: you both get dirty, but the pig doesn't mind it.

But it's really odd, immature behavior for a man in his mid-30's, and by itself enough of a reason to avoid social contact with him. So I plan to ignore him as best I can given the unfortunate circumstances. Nice club, otherwise.

[Inquartata]

I have no idea why people here are endulging this man's vanity. I very much doubt FF has stongly held views on the 'Jewish Lobby'. Instead, he is so convinced of his intellectual genius and command of the conventions of rhetoric, that he believes his powers of reason can defend any observation.

You would think that, were it true, he could not help but convince everyone. I mean, if he's so superior as debater to everyone, it should be simplicity itself to lead us ineluctably to his conclusions.

And of course, he wouldn't need insults and all of the...ah...extravagant tactics he uses to do so. Force of logic and formal debater's techniques would suffice.

Wouldn't you think?

Throw in any kind of racist banter, even when one is just joking, and that makes the opinions expressed in the entire thread seem worse than they actually are.

Well, but see, he thinks he's the Carlos Mencia of f.net.

The human capacity for self-delusion is immense, is it not?

[Inquartata]

Mistrusting Jews as a corporate entity; a body of people who may, based on quotes from Israeli Government Leaders, Prominent American Jews, and Prominent Former Generals and Secretary of State who say that Jewry, both here and in Israel have an agenda that is different than our own and that American politics is SUBJECT to it...

and me mistrusting Jews as a culture and on an individual personal level because of the words and actions of Jewish Lobby, Israeli politics, etc.

The first is NOT racism

Er...isn't judging a group rather than individuals sort of the definition of racism?

when it comes to speaking of Jews, that ANY attempt to be critical, whether legitimate or otherwise, is met with the highest form of cruel, knee jerk disdain followed by an immediate shunning.

And how is that different from treating any other group similarly?

Why not try criticising individual Jews as individuals, rather than trying to lump all Jewish individuals into a "corporate entity" and then criticising that?

If I say that I don't like Obama, that's not ( necessarily ) racism. But if I say that I don't like blacks...that's definitely racism.

There is a saying.'Anti-Semitism' isnt what one thinks of the Jews. It's what the Jews decide you are when they don't like what you say.

Is there?

Who said it, and where?

I plugged it into Google and got zero hits. I also plugged "Anti-semitism" and "Jews" into a couple of quotation sites and couldn't find anything resembling it. Maybe you've just got the exact phrasing off. Can you find the actual saying?

[Inquartata]

It takes me approx 15 minutes to type a 10000 word post.

And brother, does it show!

[thereom4]

He is wrong, but people should have a long time ago ceased passing tissues to somebody openly masturbating.

bwah ha ha ha!!

[thereom4]

But it's really odd, immature behavior for a man in his mid-30's, and by itself enough of a reason to avoid social contact with him. So I plan to ignore him as best I can given the unfortunate circumstances. Nice club, otherwise.

He's in his 30s!!!!! Wow. Really lame. Just sad.

[thereom4]

Being a hypocrite does not make someone wrong. That's another form of ad hominem. Honestly, resorting to a logical fallacy doesn't automatically mean failure. It means that line of argumentation is invalid. Saying: YOU LOSE always bothers me a bit.

I was referring to his tactic of making personal attacks.

[fatfencer]

[QUOTE=jeff;801515]

I've avoided this thread because it's a disgusting toilet, but now post because I imagine the above must be about me. Yes, I now fence at the same club as FF, such is my luck. Of course, he misrepresents my position in a disrespectful way. (I don't wear a chest protector either. I beat fatfencer by a wide margin whenever we fence, so at least there's some consolation.)

Tony is reasonably nice in person, and it was priceless to see the look on his face when I explained to him that I was the 'jeff' from f.net. However, on the net he's not nice at all. I was going to wait till I saw him at the club to tell him "I am going to shun you, since I don't want to associate with people who behave as you do". I think it's better to say that kind of thing face to face, but I haven't seen him there for weeks, so here it is. I'll fence and be polite, but that's about it.

I wanted to touch on this. I'm really upset because it was YOU who dragged the original thread into 'anti-semite' this or that, even before Hauptman. The rest is, shall we say, mere continuance.

I was 'shocked' when you revealed yourself because I have an extremely long memory and the way you described your martial abilities and pedigree in the past I had expected somebody taller and more martially capable... and younger.

Yes I was surprised that you were a 5'4" and well, quite a bit older than I thought was likely. In short. You are well, old, and martially incapable.

That was the shocker. That was why I was surprised. You aren't at all an internal artist nor are you anyone who has any martial skill at all. I met you, shook hands with you. I KNOW this to be true. Don't even TRY to deny it.

And I think you know me well enough to know that I would say this to you face. I believe quite firmly that you misrepresented your level of skill to me here on f-net. When you told me you were 'jeff' I almost died laughing. You are guilty of internet macho sir. Shame on you. I really felt bad for you. During our car ride home together you assured me that 'this was merely the internet' and that 'you argue too much on it.' whilst slapping your hand demonstratively....

Believe me Jeff, other than the misrepresentation factor I probably wouldnt be as mean. But you've weighed in on threads relating to MA like you've been a well worn fighter who has compelling experience in MA. I haven't the desire to drag quotes from other threads but I think you remember....


But, for the record, it was YOU and hauptman who spiraled the other Jewish thread, and possibly this one in the toilet with your 'anti semite' comments. I was looking to have a legitimate discussion. Whether you choose to believe me is as irrelevant. But I give you and all here my word that that was the case... but like bagua, intentions can change in a heart beat.

Frankly Jeff, 'anti-semite' is a slur, and well you, and any others who use the term will have what ever slur I can come up with in kind. I see no reason to treat you any better than you treat me, in person or otherwise.

Cordiality......yes we will be cordial. Martially speaking, the biggest difference between you and me is that I am cordial to you in person because I CAN be, because I WISH/CHOOSE to be, not because I MUST be... except for the fact that technically you would be considered my 'little kung fu brother' in terrms of experience... Xue Di.

If I truly were an anti-semite believe me...nothing would stop me from saying so at the club or anywhere for that matter. Certainly NOT you....


You however, could never afford to say or be anything BUT cordial. I'm glad you realize that you have to be two different people in life and on the net:

Jeff on NET: martially powerful, aged, but cunning warrior...
Jeff in LIFE: Old. Can't fight, never did much taiji at all and even if you did it didn't stick with you well enough for you to argue with me about MA.

ME: Perhaps an asshole but no such schizophrenia.

Given your age, you are too old for me to be otherwise than cordial.... and that isnt a slur, or somehow meant to be uncomplimentary, but you are a great deal older than me. You are only 15 years younger than Elio Scotti. And he's ****ing OLD. So yes your age compels me to be likewise...cordial. I have been hobbled by Confucianism.


BTW: Public shouting matches over internet topics is well possible I guess.. but frankly I dont relish the thought. Not that I wouldnt repeat what I have said there if I must but hey, if you want just ask Florin for my number and you can call me.

Meanwhile, yes, I am in my mid-30's, but since you started the 'toiletness' of a thread what does that say about you? My dear 50 something?

If you remember it was I who welcomed you to a club I am a founding member in because, well, we need foilists. We can't get the 7 of us to order a pizza. I don't want to be a part of that type of local politicking.

I STILL welcomed you and treated you quite cordially even after I found out who you were and remembered all the internet martial macho you've spewed. That should have said something to you about the kind of person I am. And you know me well enough to know that my humor has a great deal of race in it.

So, in short, I treat people exactly as they treat me. You are cordial to me in person so I shall return the favor. You are an asshole to me here...likewise.

Fatfencer


PS: FENCING:Yes, you have beaten me, sadly by as wide a margin as you suggested in your post. Once was 15-9 and once was 15-3 I cheerfully admit it. I'm a fencer and wouldnt dream of saying otherwise. But there will be I suspect a redress of grievances in the future.

We've only fenced 3 bouts. one pool and two DE's so lets not make it sound like you are another class above me. I'd been slumping. But, it is fair to say that you have beaten me in 2 DE's. I don't remember who won the pool. You may have...

You fence at my club once a month. I am out the rest of the summer since most of the other good foilists will be as well. Ill be back in October likely and we, can, if you wish, have this discussion there. I'll leave that up to you. I am not avoiding you. I hope your post wasnt a suggestion to that effect.

PPS: Oh another thing, no Jeff doesnt wear a CP. That was just, well, an insult placeholder so I could throw something 'jewish sounding' in due to his 'anti-semite' comments. I love hyperbole...

[fatfencer]

I was referring to his tactic of making personal attacks.

And you don't?

FF

[Phaeton]

Well, but see, he thinks he's the Carlos Mencia of f.net.

The human capacity for self-delusion is immense, is it not?

Christ. Who would want to be the Carlos Mencia of anything?

He isn't funny, and apparently plagiarist to boot.

[fatfencer]

[QUOTE=Inquartata;801540]

You would think that, were it true, he could not help but convince everyone. I mean, if he's so superior as debater to everyone, it should be simplicity itself to lead us ineluctably to his conclusions.

Tough to do more than lead a dumb horse to water. He/She has to decide to drink from the fount....

And of course, he wouldn't need insults and all of the...ah...extravagant tactics he uses to do so. Force of logic and formal debater's techniques would suffice.
Wouldn't you think?

So are we arguing or debating? If it is formal debate then i sugfgest you adhere to either the rules od CEDA, Policy or LD, acknowledge that you were wrong in the previous threads on arguentation and we can proceed from there. Pick a topic and ill happily debate you on it. Until then ill either ignore you or insult you when you attempt to negate without evidence to support why you are negating. If you dont bring a well reasoned argument to the table then I still will... but in doing so I'll remind you that you are old, and that I beat you in a weapon you take lessons in....bwahahahahaha....

Meanwhile 'Need' is a tough word here. The wrong one. Since you have decided that we were NOT debating but rather 'informally arguing'(semantic bull**** excuse for not wanting to do real argumentative work, substituting pithy latin sayings... ) I say then that we are merely insulting one another under the guise of disagreeing and arguing. When you realize that negation requires the same thorough argumentation as any affirmation I'll be happy to suspend the adhominem. But until then its as fun for me as glissing is for you.

Well, but see, he thinks he's the Carlos Mencia of f.net.

The human capacity for self-delusion is immense, is it not?

I am very funny. Its just at your expense....Why are you so buttsore against racial comedy anyways. Is Hicha a Jewish name?

Fatfencer

[thereom4]

And you don't?

FF

I've never said anything negative or inflammatory to you or anyone on F.net in regards to race/ethnicity, gender, political affiliations, or religion. Why? Because it's unnecessary. Most people only go there when they have nowhere else to go. So the answer is no.

[Inquartata]

[QUOTE=fatfencer;801642]

So are we arguing or debating?

Everyone else is arguing. You seem to think that you're debating. I am still, shall we say, dubious.

ill either ignore you or insult you

People play to their strengths. Those two are about all you really seem capable of doing, so---carry on!

I am very funny.

Oh, I agree. Just...not quite in the way you think you are.

Why are you so buttsore against racial comedy anyways.

Generally I find that it's the sign of a low mind and a crude character. Well, the sort you try to do, anyway...

Is Hicha a Jewish name?

Not as far as I know. But I wouldn't care if it was. That's your hang-up, not mine. ( Well, one of your hang-ups, anyway. The list does not appear to be brief. )

[erooMynohtnA]

I wanted to touch on this. I'm really upset because it was YOU who dragged the original thread into 'anti-semite' this or that, even before Hauptman. The rest is, shall we say, mere continuance.

I was 'shocked' when you revealed yourself because I have an extremely long memory and the way you described your martial abilities and pedigree in the past I had expected somebody taller and more martially capable... and younger.

Yes I was surprised that you were a 5'4" and well, quite a bit older than I thought was likely. In short. You are well, old, and martially incapable.

That was the shocker. That was why I was surprised. You aren't at all an internal artist nor are you anyone who has any martial skill at all. I met you, shook hands with you. I KNOW this to be true. Don't even TRY to deny it.

And I think you know me well enough to know that I would say this to you face. I believe quite firmly that you misrepresented your level of skill to me here on f-net. When you told me you were 'jeff' I almost died laughing. You are guilty of internet macho sir. Shame on you. I really felt bad for you. During our car ride home together you assured me that 'this was merely the internet' and that 'you argue too much on it.' whilst slapping your hand demonstratively....

Believe me Jeff, other than the misrepresentation factor I probably wouldnt be as mean. But you've weighed in on threads relating to MA like you've been a well worn fighter who has compelling experience in MA. I haven't the desire to drag quotes from other threads but I think you remember....


But, for the record, it was YOU and hauptman who spiraled the other Jewish thread, and possibly this one in the toilet with your 'anti semite' comments. I was looking to have a legitimate discussion. Whether you choose to believe me is as irrelevant. But I give you and all here my word that that was the case... but like bagua, intentions can change in a heart beat.

Frankly Jeff, 'anti-semite' is a slur, and well you, and any others who use the term will have what ever slur I can come up with in kind. I see no reason to treat you any better than you treat me, in person or otherwise.

Cordiality......yes we will be cordial. Martially speaking, the biggest difference between you and me is that I am cordial to you in person because I CAN be, because I WISH/CHOOSE to be, not because I MUST be... except for the fact that technically you would be considered my 'little kung fu brother' in terrms of experience... Xue Di.

If I truly were an anti-semite believe me...nothing would stop me from saying so at the club or anywhere for that matter. Certainly NOT you....


You however, could never afford to say or be anything BUT cordial. I'm glad you realize that you have to be two different people in life and on the net:

Jeff on NET: martially powerful, aged, but cunning warrior...
Jeff in LIFE: Old. Can't fight, never did much taiji at all and even if you did it didn't stick with you well enough for you to argue with me about MA.

ME: Perhaps an asshole but no such schizophrenia.

Given your age, you are too old for me to be otherwise than cordial.... and that isnt a slur, or somehow meant to be uncomplimentary, but you are a great deal older than me. You are only 15 years younger than Elio Scotti. And he's ****ing OLD. So yes your age compels me to be likewise...cordial. I have been hobbled by Confucianism.


BTW: Public shouting matches over internet topics is well possible I guess.. but frankly I dont relish the thought. Not that I wouldnt repeat what I have said there if I must but hey, if you want just ask Florin for my number and you can call me.

Meanwhile, yes, I am in my mid-30's, but since you started the 'toiletness' of a thread what does that say about you? My dear 50 something?

If you remember it was I who welcomed you to a club I am a founding member in because, well, we need foilists. We can't get the 7 of us to order a pizza. I don't want to be a part of that type of local politicking.

I STILL welcomed you and treated you quite cordially even after I found out who you were and remembered all the internet martial macho you've spewed. That should have said something to you about the kind of person I am. And you know me well enough to know that my humor has a great deal of race in it.

So, in short, I treat people exactly as they treat me. You are cordial to me in person so I shall return the favor. You are an asshole to me here...likewise.

Fatfencer


PS: FENCING:Yes, you have beaten me, sadly by as wide a margin as you suggested in your post. Once was 15-9 and once was 15-3 I cheerfully admit it. I'm a fencer and wouldnt dream of saying otherwise. But there will be I suspect a redress of grievances in the future.

We've only fenced 3 bouts. one pool and two DE's so lets not make it sound like you are another class above me. I'd been slumping. But, it is fair to say that you have beaten me in 2 DE's. I don't remember who won the pool. You may have...

You fence at my club once a month. I am out the rest of the summer since most of the other good foilists will be as well. Ill be back in October likely and we, can, if you wish, have this discussion there. I'll leave that up to you. I am not avoiding you. I hope your post wasnt a suggestion to that effect.

PPS: Oh another thing, no Jeff doesnt wear a CP. That was just, well, an insult placeholder so I could throw something 'jewish sounding' in due to his 'anti-semite' comments. I love hyperbole...

I heard Jeff kicked your ass in the parking lot.

[erooMynohtnA]

I wanted to touch on this. I'm really upset because it was YOU who dragged the original thread into 'anti-semite' this or that, even before Hauptman. The rest is, shall we say, mere continuance.

I was 'shocked' when you revealed yourself because I have an extremely long memory and the way you described your martial abilities and pedigree in the past I had expected somebody taller and more martially capable... and younger.

Yes I was surprised that you were a 5'4" and well, quite a bit older than I thought was likely. In short. You are well, old, and martially incapable.

That was the shocker. That was why I was surprised. You aren't at all an internal artist nor are you anyone who has any martial skill at all. I met you, shook hands with you. I KNOW this to be true. Don't even TRY to deny it.

And I think you know me well enough to know that I would say this to you face. I believe quite firmly that you misrepresented your level of skill to me here on f-net. When you told me you were 'jeff' I almost died laughing. You are guilty of internet macho sir. Shame on you. I really felt bad for you. During our car ride home together you assured me that 'this was merely the internet' and that 'you argue too much on it.' whilst slapping your hand demonstratively....

Believe me Jeff, other than the misrepresentation factor I probably wouldnt be as mean. But you've weighed in on threads relating to MA like you've been a well worn fighter who has compelling experience in MA. I haven't the desire to drag quotes from other threads but I think you remember....


But, for the record, it was YOU and hauptman who spiraled the other Jewish thread, and possibly this one in the toilet with your 'anti semite' comments. I was looking to have a legitimate discussion. Whether you choose to believe me is as irrelevant. But I give you and all here my word that that was the case... but like bagua, intentions can change in a heart beat.

Frankly Jeff, 'anti-semite' is a slur, and well you, and any others who use the term will have what ever slur I can come up with in kind. I see no reason to treat you any better than you treat me, in person or otherwise.

Cordiality......yes we will be cordial. Martially speaking, the biggest difference between you and me is that I am cordial to you in person because I CAN be, because I WISH/CHOOSE to be, not because I MUST be... except for the fact that technically you would be considered my 'little kung fu brother' in terrms of experience... Xue Di.

If I truly were an anti-semite believe me...nothing would stop me from saying so at the club or anywhere for that matter. Certainly NOT you....


You however, could never afford to say or be anything BUT cordial. I'm glad you realize that you have to be two different people in life and on the net:

Jeff on NET: martially powerful, aged, but cunning warrior...
Jeff in LIFE: Old. Can't fight, never did much taiji at all and even if you did it didn't stick with you well enough for you to argue with me about MA.

ME: Perhaps an asshole but no such schizophrenia.

Given your age, you are too old for me to be otherwise than cordial.... and that isnt a slur, or somehow meant to be uncomplimentary, but you are a great deal older than me. You are only 15 years younger than Elio Scotti. And he's ****ing OLD. So yes your age compels me to be likewise...cordial. I have been hobbled by Confucianism.


BTW: Public shouting matches over internet topics is well possible I guess.. but frankly I dont relish the thought. Not that I wouldnt repeat what I have said there if I must but hey, if you want just ask Florin for my number and you can call me.

Meanwhile, yes, I am in my mid-30's, but since you started the 'toiletness' of a thread what does that say about you? My dear 50 something?

If you remember it was I who welcomed you to a club I am a founding member in because, well, we need foilists. We can't get the 7 of us to order a pizza. I don't want to be a part of that type of local politicking.

I STILL welcomed you and treated you quite cordially even after I found out who you were and remembered all the internet martial macho you've spewed. That should have said something to you about the kind of person I am. And you know me well enough to know that my humor has a great deal of race in it.

So, in short, I treat people exactly as they treat me. You are cordial to me in person so I shall return the favor. You are an asshole to me here...likewise.

Fatfencer


PS: FENCING:Yes, you have beaten me, sadly by as wide a margin as you suggested in your post. Once was 15-9 and once was 15-3 I cheerfully admit it. I'm a fencer and wouldnt dream of saying otherwise. But there will be I suspect a redress of grievances in the future.

We've only fenced 3 bouts. one pool and two DE's so lets not make it sound like you are another class above me. I'd been slumping. But, it is fair to say that you have beaten me in 2 DE's. I don't remember who won the pool. You may have...

You fence at my club once a month. I am out the rest of the summer since most of the other good foilists will be as well. Ill be back in October likely and we, can, if you wish, have this discussion there. I'll leave that up to you. I am not avoiding you. I hope your post wasnt a suggestion to that effect.

PPS: Oh another thing, no Jeff doesnt wear a CP. That was just, well, an insult placeholder so I could throw something 'jewish sounding' in due to his 'anti-semite' comments. I love hyperbole...

I heard Jeff kicked your ass in the parking lot and you cried for mercy like a little girl as he stood over you.

[Inquartata]

Yes but again you are squirreling out the backdoor again implying your 'questioning' as a valid for of argumentation when it suits you, i.e. when you wish to negate something via implication but when I engage you play judge.

Care to translate that into English?

You are either the adversary, and I happily engage you, or you are an inquisitor with no desire to negate. Being both is not argumentation. It violates, even in informal argumentation the concept of good faith and fair play.

I would ask you to prove that, but you seem incapable of understanding "burden of proof", so...I won't bother. I'll just point out, for the benefit of anyone else masochistic enough to read this thread, that this is another instance of you insisting on others adhering to standards which only you seem to recognize or care about. I will not go so far as to claim that you have invented them, but your insistence that everyone MUST do things the way you say they should be done is, at a minimum, much like a child holding its breath to get its way...

In short, YES. You flaming dunderhead yes. Get this thru your head. and...
NO there's nothing wrong with my reading.

Temper..temper...

UNLESS we are arguing, then we BOTH must.

argumentum ad nauseam. Apparently your reading is as skilled as your writing, because you certainly didn't absorb anything I posted above. That's OK, I won't bother in future. Evidence or no, the result is the same with you.

Because we have engaged in a type of construct, a schema if you will that has some basic rules like good faith and fair play.

And insults, and crude, racist 'humor', and baiting, and boasting, and all manner of other nonsense, apparently. ( Are these among the sophisticated "techniques" they taught you at Debate Camp? )

I admit, I will be interested in seeing how you rationalize these behaviors this time.

Your notion is that I am constantly wrong and vice versa.

You are wrong sometimes, but never in your own egoistic mind. Sometimes you might be right, but get all defensive when so much as questioned, and so we never get around to finding out. You seem to take being asked for evidence as some sort of personal affront, and just keep stubbornly repeating the original claim instead.

More techniques from Debate University?

When you say 'Prove it' it is standard to say 'Prove it, because I have all this evidence to the contrary and give it.'

It's so 'standard' that it's made the textbooks.

Oh, wait, I quoted a textbook saying the opposite, didn't I?

My mistake, now I've dared to oppose the mighty FF again and will doubtless be rewarded with some more terribly original and witty insults. Oh, dear, what shall I do?

The author makes a case that a well reasoned argument is both one free of fallacy and has proposition, evidence, use of evidence via example and conclusion.

Lord, he hath eyes, but he cannot read...

I submit the other evidence from the Lincoln Douglas Debate site which you are conveniently ignoring which DOES say these things.

1) Your link will not work for me. Your imputation that this is "conveniently ignoring" constitutes yet another ad hominem argument by coloring the arguer.

Bravo, I do so admire your superior debating skills as demonstrated...

2) Why on earth would do you persist in forwarding the rules of an irrelevant formal debate style in an entirely different context?

Do you think that the rules of foil should apply to epee bouts, too? Let's hope you never take up refereeing!

you will be ignored as an ineffectual debater, a lazy ignorer of specific evidence

I'm cool with that. I really consider disdain from you to be high praise, in a contrarian sort of way.

My response is to ignore you until you bring something, anything resembling substance to the table.

"A consummation devoutly to be wish'd"! Please, by all means. There is an "ignore" function awaiting your ready use...

Perhaps this is progress at last!

yes it does.

And there're all your years of debating experience in a nutshell: Just keep repeating your assertions. Just keep saying "Yes it does!"

I am in awe of your masterful skills.

If you merely say 'prove it', since you are NOT arguing as you have said many times when it was convenient for you to say so, I will merely ignore you. Do you get it now?

You said that already.

And yet, you're still here...

Which one? i will try and find it and email you the material

Er...the one I cited in my previous post, maybe?

I quote things specifically so that people will know which of their statements I'm answering, you know. There's no other reason to do it...

I am ignoring you...

Alas, still not, apparently.

I show evidence

Wow. I'd love it if you did that. Sometime.

" To get anywhere each side must assume a reasonable burden of proof in dialogue, each side must SINCERELY try to justify his or her adopted position and to INCUR commitment when queried"

That's the part you don't seem to get.

Usually I am not...wait, let me bold-face this for you...I am not presenting an 'adopted position'.

Can you comprehend this?

I am 'querying'. See? Not being queried. Do you understand the difference? CAN you understand the difference?

If you say "X", and I say "What's your evidence for X?", I am not ascending to some hoary lectern for a moderated formal debate on the topic of X with you. I'm just expressing dubiety, in an informal setting, about your latest whimsy.

Breathlessly I await your reply that I really, really AM NOT...that I really, really AM accepting an invitation to a Lincoln-Douglas debate...because, after all, you say so...

Even you can hardly argue that I dont commit to arguments.

No. But you commit to fallacious ones a good deal, and the rest of them are usually self-serving arguments, as that you are a great debater, or a great martial artist, or a great humorist ( odd how often "I am great" seems to be a part of your arguments ). Or else they're for bizarre and/or offensive positions, which are transparent attempts to anger people for no apparent reason...

If I say I like A, but dont say why, if you then ask why or say you don't believe, it is faux pas for me to say 'why not?'

Yes, Tony. Yes. It is. It is an attempt to shift the burden of proof. That's what I've been on about all this time.

How many other definitions of this principle would you like me to reprint for you? The pronouncement of which authority will you accept on the matter?

However, that isnt whats happening between us. I'm the one advancing a these with evidence (Jews thread) and you claim say a fallacy exists and thus you deny my argument

Nope. I just point out that you've advanced an argument fallaciously. As such it cannot be accepted.

Now, at this point you could just reframe the argument in a nonfallacious form. You could make a different argument altogether. You could do these things. But you'd rather insist that your argument isn't in a fallacious form, over and over, or insist that there's an obligation on me to construct a counterargument to a clearly fallacious and not coincidentally unsupported statement, or toss off additional fallacious remarks, usually dressed up in insults which you imagine are "funny".

Good luck with that. ( Prohibited smily here )

without any evidence of how the fallacy applies

Are you really so incapable of spotting a fallacy when it is pointed out to you? No one else seems to have trouble recognizing Wally when he's indicated by a big red arrow...

AND you do not actually attack the argument that remains despite any said fallacy... which often did not exist and even if it did much of the arguments still remained. No substantive evidentiary response.

Sigh...stuck in endless loop...must...find...exit...

[Inquartata]

I heard Jeff kicked your ass in the parking lot and you cried for mercy like a little girl as he stood over you.

Remember, you needn't offer any proof of that. Just insist that FF construct a formal argument DISproving it...