foil wire gauge-how big

[Greg Z.]

I have been using 30 gauge wire for foils with good results. I was wondering if larger gauge wire would last longer or actually be more brittle(willow/oak).
I bought some 24 gauge wire which is the largest gauge I could jamm into the groove of my foil. I havn't had a chance to wire up a blade with the big stuff, so I was wondering if anyone else has experience with larger gauge wire. I also was wondering if it would change the characteristics of the blade(less flexible)?
Greg Z.

[neevel]

30-gauge (or the closest metric equivalent) is what point manufacturers generally use, and what foil blade grooves are made to accept. I've got both 30 and 27 gauge cotton-insulated copper wire, essentially identical to what Prieur uses. The 27 gauge will occasionally not fit cleanly into a narrow or shallower groove. It has no effect on the characteristics of the blade.

My suspiscion is that, within a given type of wire, the increase in thickness wouldn't make all that much of a difference in durability. The majority of breaks are at the solder joint or crimp at the contact, which isn't going to be much affected by the diameter of the wire. Breaks along the blade are most commonly the result of the wire popping up and then getting whacked by another blade-- going up from 30 to 27 or 24 gauge probably wouldn't make a significant difference either. I've not noticed a difference between the 27 and 30 gauge wire that I use.

A difference in the type of wire could make a difference. 30-gauge wire-wrap wire, while adequate to the task, is weaker than the 30-gauge wire used by equipment manufacturers.

-Dave

[Greg Z.]

Interesting. In wire-wrap wire I assume you mean wire for magnet wrapping. There is the multistranded wire and the single stranded type as well. The multistranded is not well suited.
I'm not sure I fully agree with the question of durability at the solder junction, especially at 24 gauge, perhaps at 26 gauge. The 24 gauge is quite a bit stiffer and should tolerate more torque than 30 gauge. I fully agree however than a popped out 24 gauge wire would not do any better.
This brings me to another question. Why isn't it common practice to better protect the wire down the course of the blade with tape or at least some other type of glued mesh at least over the top of the blade? Another interesting thought would be for the companies to develope a hollow blade with the wire totally enclosed. I imagine the hollow blades would not be flexible enough and would probably break.

[DHCJr]

Greg,

You made two great points, that I would like to comment on. First is taping. In the USFA rule book, it states 15 cm. I have heard that when the new FIE rule book comes out it will be corrected to maximum of 15 cm. The reason is if you hit a non-conductive surface you will get a white light stopping the action. It is almost impossible to hit the foilble. Now if they get rid of the white light as they have been talking about, maybe the rule can be revisited.

Now the hollow blade has been tried and it was a success. The wiring lasted a lot longer, the blade even seemed to last longer. Everything looked like that was going to be the wave of the future. Then the company that designed that blade, took a patent out on the idea for a hollow blade. The other companies protested and the FIE made them illegal.

Interesting.

[neevel]

Originally posted by Greg Z.
Interesting. In wire-wrap wire I assume you mean wire for magnet wrapping. There is the multistranded wire and the single stranded type as well. The multistranded is not well suited.

I'm not sure I fully agree with the question of durability at the solder junction, especially at 24 gauge, perhaps at 26 gauge. The 24 gauge is quite a bit stiffer and should tolerate more torque than 30 gauge. I fully agree however than a popped out 24 gauge wire would not do any better.

I was referring to the single strand wire-wrapping wire with colored Kynar insulation that's readily available at Radio Shack or on order from Digi-Key or Mouser.

By failures at the solder joint, I was referring to the solder itself cracking and failing, not the wire. When you run vibration or shock tests on pieces of electronics hardware, what usually fails at solder points is the solder itself, rather than the pins of the components or wires. Of course, when you unscrew the point of from a blade to rewire it, that's almost always going to break the wire as well.

-Dave

[Greg Z.]

Don and Dave
Thanks for the interesting info. How long ago were these hollow blades introduced? I'm surprised that the company didn't just continue to sell them to the majority of fencers who would appreciate the blade's longevity at the local level where they would be legal. If they were really that much better then eventually the fencing community would insist upon their approval? Too nieve?
I never knew that about solder being the weakest link in electronics. It would make sense then, to just coil the end of the wire in the base of the cup as so many others reportedly do. It just seems so rough and sloppy to just leave a bare wire to contact the spring. I would also imagine that the wire would get pretty twisted in the cup as the point twisted the spring around.
Thanks, I'm learning something every post.
Greg

[DHCJr]

Greg,

It was before my time and I am leaving on a trip (giving some clinics at West Point) in a few hours. I will check with Dan, about when, next week and get back to you with a complete history.

I am guessing, but how many blades would be bought, if you couldn't even use them at local competitions. If the USFA required FIE blades, how many of the NON-FIE blades would be bought.

[neevel]

I will confess to using the "spool in the cup" method for club weapons, where my objective is to keep as many base-line functional foils in service for use at practice with the minimum cost and effort. For my own personal weapons, though, I use wires with contacts.

The spooling method doesn't provide as even a contact and resting surface for the spring. I've never been able to get a foil wired that way to show much less than approximately 10 ohms resistance (the upper limit in the rules is 2 ohms), no matter how neatly I wind the wire and how clean the spring and tip are. While 10 ohms is entirely functional, and as a practical matter will never give you any trouble except at a World Championships or Olympics (where a full weapons control is done), I would still prefer to have my own weapons as spec-perfect as possible.

-Dave

[Greg Z.]

Finally got a chance to try my 24 gauge wire.
I had several wire failures with my 30 gauge wire and my modified copper cup solder(see "foil wire" post and look for the world's longest post) I think the copper base was cutting the wire.
I was messing around and tried the spool method but then took it one step further and applied solder to the spooled end and I was able to make a very nice base for the plastic(toy cap plastic caps).
I fenced today and it has so far survived. I will keep you all posted as to the 24 gauge wire and soldered "spool in cup" method. I'll be using it this weekend at a tournament in Chicago.
Greg Z.

[neevel]

Greg-

You may already be on your way there, but if you read this, come hunt me down at Remenyik saturday. I'd be interested in seeing the wire you're using.

The solder-dab is one route to go with the wire-spooling. If I'm going to spend the time soldering up new wires, I generally just re-use an old contact, since I've not found any more problems with the wires breaking at the cup than with new wires.

-Dave

[Greg Z.]

Dave
It was a pleasure meeting you Saturday. I'm sure you did better than I did, but I got a huge dose of some unbelievable fencing.
My 24 gauge wire is holding so far, so I'll let you know.
Once again thanks for taking the time to check out my foil wire.
Greg
PS This was my first large tournament and I have nothing to compare it to, but I think it was run VERY smoothly. I will plan to be there again next year with any luck.
Greg

[DHCJr]

I have the information on the hollow blade. It was in 1956 and was created by Bela Detuscan.

[JEC]

If it is 1956, then the patent has probably expired and now it is public domain? Isn't it? Any patent attorneys peeking in the board?

[Greg Z.]

Don
Where did you pull out that tid-bit. Wow!
Interesting thing about that patent expiring, just remember I mentioned the idea first. Ha, Ha.
You would think that someone else Leon Paul etc would have developed that blade by now, don't you think?
Thanks for going to the trouble.
Greg Z.

PS
Oh and by the way I never thanked you for mailing those two small manuals from the Armorers class. I've read them both, some stuff I already knew some I did not. You are a man of your word, thanks again.

[mfp]

Originally posted by DHCJr
I have the information on the hollow blade. It was in 1956 and was created by Bela Detuscan.

I think the name should be Bela de Tuscan, the famous sabre fencer. He was related to Joanna de Tuscan (as her husband?).

Joanna de Tuscan fenced in the Berlin Olympics, with some calling her the "most beautiful Olympian of the 1936 games". She appeared on a Wheaties box and in several cigarette ads, and supposedly auditioned for the lead in the movie 'Gone With The Wind'.

The Westside Fencing Center's female champs page has this footnote on her:

Joanna deTuscan, 1936 National Foil Champion and Olympian. After winning her first title (the first Midwesterner to do so), she was expelled from the fencing association after the New York women accused the Detroiter of accepting transportation money to a fencing demonstration. She never fenced in the US championships again.

As for Bela's "1956" patent, patents from 1790 through 1975 are searchable only by patent number on the US PTO site so not knowing the number was a bit of a problem. However I searched 1975 onward in the hopes a more recent patent cited the de Tuscan one and got lucky . . .

Bela's patent was filed Aug 28th, 1940 and granted Aug 25th, 1942. The patent is for a "Fencing Foil" with 5 claims and is US number 2,294,026

If you'd like to view an image of the patent, go to:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netahtml/srchnum.htm

Then type 2,294,026 in to the Query text field and click the Search button. After the search completes, click on the "Images" button to view an image of the original patent.

[DHCJr]

mfp thank you. I received the information from Dan over the phone and I have never seen it in print. I will be looking at the site you mentioned.

Thank you again