2009-10 SAT testing and 2009-10 USFA Schedule

[JEC]

Once upon a time, the SAT testing dates were listed on the USFA tentative schedules.

2009-10 USFA Schedule

October 9-12, 2009 (Fri-Mon) - Division II/Division III/Cadet - Des Moines, IA
November 6-9, 2009 (Fri-Mon) - Junior/Cadet/Youth 14 - Kansas City, MO
December 4-6, 2009 (Fri-Sun) - Division I/Veteran - Pittsburgh, PA

SAT 2009-10 Testing Dates

Oct. 10 SAT (vs NAC-A)
Nov. 7 SAT (vs NAC-B)
Dec. 5 SAT (vs NAC-C)

USFA must not schedule Junior events on Saturday Nov. 7, or late events on Friday Nov. 6. This is a major oversight that impacts fencers who are planning to enroll as college freshmen in 2010 (~1991-2).

[teacup]

The 2009 - 2010 and 2010 - 2011 college board calendar. There are conflicts the following year too.

[kmwong]

Ah, College Board.... how I DON'T miss them at ALL. I sympathize, I really do.

[JEC]

Yes. Out of office for at the first one, then I sent to several staff members.

[oso97]

USFA must not schedule Junior events on Saturday Nov. 7, or late events on Friday Nov. 6.

Really? I think I'll quibble with this. I recall no BOD resolution, EC action, or general policy statement from the Tournament Committee or National Office that says anything like this. Doesn't mean that the word "SHOULD" could be inserted and make the statement somewhat better.

This is a major oversight that impacts fencers who are planning to enroll as college freshmen in 2010 (~1991-2).

Now, this is slightly more supportable. Although, I'm going to quibble with the use of the term "major oversight." It could also be an "consequence of starting to schedule our events several years in advance." Before testing dates are known for a specific season, in other words.

Not everything is a great conspiracy to hurt some segment of the competitive population.

Except for Women's Epee - we all know that everyone is out to get them! *wink*

[JEC]

Really? I think I'll quibble with this. I recall no BOD resolution, EC action, or general policy statement from the Tournament Committee or National Office that says anything like this. Doesn't mean that the word "SHOULD" could be inserted and make the statement somewhat better.



Now, this is slightly more supportable. Although, I'm going to quibble with the use of the term "major oversight." It could also be an "consequence of starting to schedule our events several years in advance." Before testing dates are known for a specific season, in other words.

Not everything is a great conspiracy to hurt some segment of the competitive population.

Except for Women's Epee - we all know that everyone is out to get them! *wink*

Attitude re-adjustment: I believe that USFA MUST serve its members.

It is also a fact that in the past, SAT testing dates were listed of the USFA schedule. Somehow, somebody decided that SAT testing dates were not longer part of the equation.

[Superscribe]

That's a rough schedule. I'm surpised that colleges now require you to have perfect attendance at NAC's for admittance.

I'm curious what kind of potential college freshman would be eligible to particpate in all three NAC's?

It looks likes you'll have to get a testing done early in the summer.

Or is the problem that SAT testing must happen on the Nov 7, 8 date?

[TBean]

I'm curious what kind of potential college freshman would be eligible to particpate in all three NAC's?

A U-19 with a C-rating would have an event in each of those tournaments.

[Superscribe]

ah good. I just wanted to make sure i covered all my bases before i offer the advice of how maybe a good SAT score is much, much more important than trying for a huge break out year in terms of tournaments results.

[TBean]

I imagine, the biggest gripe is the November NAC - very popular for test-takers, and an event that every U-19 can participate in. Poor luck on the part of the USFA that everything just happens to be lining up this way.

[oso97]

Attitude re-adjustment: I believe that USFA MUST serve its members.

Absolutely. No one ever said otherwise. I'm merely pointing out that "serving its members" is a complex equation, and by changing one thing, it can have ripple effects on down the line. For example, scheduling tournaments several years in advance. This is a "good thing." No dispute from that.

And also, just because some group is on the short end of the stick in a particular instance, doesn't mean the the USFA has made a decision as a body to no longer even try to serve its members.

Example: Summer Nationals Day Schedule. In Women's Sabre, DivIA and DivIII are scheduled for the same day, meaning someone cannot fence in both events. Also, in Women's Sabre, DivIA/DivIII and Div II are separated by like 5 days, and there's a pretty substantial population who could, and have, qualified in all three or at least the two next to each other, and if the USFA is trying to maximize revenues, making it possible for these individuals to fence in multiple events helps with that bottom line.

However, in not doing so it doesn't mean that the USFA is now dedicated to no longer serving these individuals, or the membership at large, but that other criteria were more important in setting the schedule. Every perceived "failure" of the organization (and many of the actual ones) does not spring from some deep-hearted conspiracy to not serve the membership and it does no one any good to say that they do.

It is also a fact that in the past, SAT testing dates were listed of the USFA schedule. Somehow, somebody decided that SAT testing dates were not longer part of the equation.

Again, why assume malice? And correlation does NOT equal causation. As an scientist, JEC, you should know that.

Now, if we're going to get into a discussion of tradeoffs, lets look at the idea rationally, starting with the December date. First two weekends of December - one of those is going to be a NAC (and a VETERAN and DIVI NAC). The other one is when something like 70-80% of the divisions schedule JO quals. Which one is going to impact more fencers if you schedule it on top of an SAT testing date?

As far as the others, well, those are the dates associated with Columbus Day (October) and Veterans Day (November). We have a long standing policy of associating events with these weekends for a simple reason - they're three day weekends for many people, including schools and to attend, they don't have to take as much time off of work or school.

Sounds like serving the membership to me...

[hello?]

Clearly, someone should tell The College Board that the USFA has already taken those dates. (Seriously, I do think this will affect a significant amount of high school kids. It's not a question of having to choose between a NAC or taking the SAT...they should be able to do both.)

[teacup]

For 2010 - 2011, the three NAC's will also fall on SAT test dates. Since Veterans Day is a specific date, Nov. 11, obviously, it is not always on a Monday. This year Nov. 11 is on a Wednesday, so the NAC could have been Nov. 13 - 16th. For 2010 - 2012, if the NAC were to be Nov. 12 - 15th, it would actually be closer to Veteran's Day which is Thursday, Nov. 11th but it will be Nov. 5 - 8th, an SAT date.

(Though a three day weekend for some, Columbus Day is not a holiday observed in all states.)

As for JO qualifiers, divisions usually set their dates around National events and SAT dates. (Divisions can have qualifiers on the Sundays of the SAT weekend.) This season NAC C, was Dec. 12 - 15, 2008. Quite often it has been the second weekend in December, which would be Dec. 11 - 13, 2009.

The date conflicts were probably an oversight, done with no malicious intentions. Unfortunately, although the October and December dates will perhaps be less of a problem, the November NAC/SAT dates will be a problem for many fencers/students.

[Superscribe]

I'm absolutely flabbergasted, and would appreciate it if someone could help me understand.

Is this a problem because some fencers won't be able to get the results they were hoping for in the 2009-2010 competition year, and therefore they wouldn't be able to get the admittance and/or scholarships to the school they want? Is that why parents are pissed off? That's maybe a tough spot to be in, but the number of student fencers who face this problem is certainly not a "significant amount of high school students", by any stretch of statistical meaning. I feel confident in saying this because i have some rough idea of how many graduating seniors there are in the united states, and i know how many fencers there are in the usfa. Realistically, I don't even think this conundrum is going to affect most high school C fencers.

[keith]

I'm absolutely flabbergasted, and would appreciate it if someone could help me understand.

Take your pick;

Youth/Cadet/Junior are the most important groups of fencers in the USFA and as such should be accommodated first when scheduling.

Making changes to standing policies on the basis that, hell they are informal so why not, and then not disseminating that information is generally a good way to irritate people.

It's fnet what do you really expect.

[teacup]

It looks likes you'll have to get a testing done early in the summer.

Although a good suggestion, unfortunately, there aren't any SAT/SAT II summer test dates.

[fdad]

I'm absolutely flabbergasted, and would appreciate it if someone could help me understand.

Is this a problem because some fencers won't be able to get the results they were hoping for in the 2009-2010 competition year, and therefore they wouldn't be able to get the admittance and/or scholarships to the school they want? Is that why parents are pissed off? That's maybe a tough spot to be in, but the number of student fencers who face this problem is certainly not a "significant amount of high school students", by any stretch of statistical meaning. I feel confident in saying this because i have some rough idea of how many graduating seniors there are in the united states, and i know how many fencers there are in the usfa. Realistically, I don't even think this conundrum is going to affect most high school C fencers.

Most top colleges require the general SAT and 2 or 3 subject SATs. Starting again next year, after a few years where colleges received all SAT scores or none, students will be able to select which scores are sent to colleges. If a student took multiple tests the same day, either all of the scores or none from that day may be sent. A student may take (I think) either the general SAT or up to 2 subject tests on a test date. Even the most confident student applying to a top school will need to sit for two or three test dates. A cautious student might need 4 or more test dates.

I don't think this problem is limited in its impact to C rated HS seniors, it impacts many high schoolers. I'd venture to guess that more than 50% of fencers at NACs in senior events are high school students.

[mlr2fence]

Want to open up a can of worms? SAT test dates generally affect a fencer for only one competition year. What about college kids where the December/April NACs interfere with Finals? This could impact 4 or more years. And then those that have graduation on one of those weekends? What about someone who finds December busy with Holiday Parties? Or a wedding/family reunion that lands during Summer Nationals? Or a NAC falls on a religious holiday? Or the November NAC that 'messes up' their football schedule? Or any other NAC that falls on a weekend where one has work obligation? And then we could go on to the event days--I might not like having something on the March Friday and want it Sunday, while you want the opposite.
Bottom line, no matter what NAC dates or event dates are selected, someone will be unable to attend. So you skip it and move on. It doesn't make one happy (been there-done that) but can't always do everything and choices have to be made. For every group/situation you try to please, chances are that someone will be unhappy with the decision. The organization just has to move ahead with the best they can do and if that means dates/locations that may not be optimal, but the most affordable, then so be it. I'm sure they are not trying to keep people from attending with the dates/locations selected.

[fdad]

Want to open up a can of worms? SAT test dates generally affect a fencer for only one competition year.

As I pointed out above, students applying to top schools need more than one test date. All of the fall test dates conflict with NACs next year.

[Superscribe]

Although a good suggestion, unfortunately, there aren't any SAT/SAT II summer test dates.

So what you're telling me is May 1,2 and June 5,6 aren't listed on the schedule that you posted? Or maybe you are referring to the 2008-2009 schedule, which I don't have a copy of, but I still think there are similar date in the may june or july time frame?

Also, what seems to be the main source of complaint is the belief in a completely unfounded right... that being the right to participate in what you want, when you want, all the time. My point being, if being in a NAC does no more for your child (or you) than simply being able to fence and have a good and meaningful experience, i think "get over it" is a good response. I don't feel bad about saying this, because i think there are plenty of NAC's in your child's future.

If being in a NAC does something like secure your position for scholarship or admission to the university/college of your choice, well then I truly feel for you. However my sorrow is tempered by my belief that it's unlikely people in this situation fall in the intersection of people are a C and under AND people that haven't gotten some SAT/ACT already under their belt.

On that note, you might consider looking into what the ACT is.

Not to irritate the original poster, or those feeling the pinch of this unfortunate scheduling problem, but i encourage parents to prevent the possibility of missing a large number of NAC's in a year by having their children take tests earlier than senior year.