2009-10 SAT testing and 2009-10 USFA Schedule

[hello?]

Want to open up a can of worms? SAT test dates generally affect a fencer for only one competition year. What about college kids where the December/April NACs interfere with Finals? This could impact 4 or more years. And then those that have graduation on one of those weekends? What about someone who finds December busy with Holiday Parties? Or a wedding/family reunion that lands during Summer Nationals? Or a NAC falls on a religious holiday? Or the November NAC that 'messes up' their football schedule? Or any other NAC that falls on a weekend where one has work obligation? And then we could go on to the event days--I might not like having something on the March Friday and want it Sunday, while you want the opposite.
Bottom line, no matter what NAC dates or event dates are selected, someone will be unable to attend. So you skip it and move on.

Please. The whole point here is that in most of these cases, the FENCER has a choice. Oh, the NAC falls during finals, then you can CHOOSE to give up a couple of parties and study ahead of time....The problem with SATs is that the only choice is not attending one or the other. (And SATs usually affect Juniors and Seniors -- two years, not one). Parties, family reunions...well, of course, the USFA cannot take every single member 's INDIVIDUAL needs into account (I happen to give up my best friend's Holiday Party extravaganza every year because of the December NAC), but SATs? Those dates are easily checked. And they affect an important segment of the fencing population -- and here we seem to have a case where THREE NACs conflict with SAT dates. Did they bother to check?.....And, again, my daughter graduated from college already. I have no personal interest here. But I do think it's ridiculous.

[hello?]

S
Not to irritate the original poster, or those feeling the pinch of this unfortunate scheduling problem, but i encourage parents to prevent the possibility of missing a large number of NAC's in a year by having their children take tests earlier than senior year.

I am sure you are an educator -- or the parent of a highly gifted high school kid, so please excuse me. But, in my opinion (based only on my own kids' and their friends' experience) taking tests 'early' is often counter-productive (unless you see it as practice -- and know that, if you don't excell, you can always take it again)....And, depending on the college, even a "C" rated fencer might increase his or her chances of being looked at by a coach by attending a NAC...If he or she gets his "B" at a Div 2, for example, all of a sudden he or she might be desirable. And not all colleges are looking at or feel they can even get A- or B-rated fencers. Getting a solid C might be better than having a whole team of walk-ons...and that might help that C-kid get into that college. Why should that C-kid have to choose? (Or the A-rated Junior who needs to get his or her scores just that much higher to get into an Ivy League?) Again, the USFA could have simply looked at the dates.

[seak]

When samples are similar, SAT scores of HS Seniors are higher on average than HS Juniors.

Also, I'm curious and would love to see a cite for this. Mostly because I'm highly skeptical.

From purely anecdotal evidence, the only people who scored higher as seniors were those who'd taken a class in between. For many people the math is harder as a senior because you're further removed from the subjects the test is testing.

[hello?]

Also, I'm curious and would love to see a cite for this. Mostly because I'm highly skeptical.

From purely anecdotal evidence, the only people who scored higher as seniors were those who'd taken a class in between.

From purely anecdotal evidence, I disagree. Scores usually increase the more you take them, the later you take them. But, again, as in your case, this is purely anectotal. (However, if MOST kids are given the choice to take these tests often and well into their senior year...why should serious fencers, who want to get into good colleges AND fence at NACs, be denied the choice?)

[teacup]

Now, how can you possibly fix this problem by changing the dates for the Nov NAC, which is the most relevant date for HS seniors of the three conflicts? I assume the date and venue can't be changed, and those HS juniors out there better check the deadline for the June SAT, as I think the deadline for the May SAT is past. Any ideas?

JEC was suggesting to change the junior events to Sunday and Monday which could work. But events would need to start Sunday afternoon to accommodate those who have to travel long distances to Kansas City. Events don't have to finish at 6:00, why not go into the evening?

Depending on what stage venue negotiations are for the November 2010 NAC, perhaps that date could be changed so there aren't conflicts with SIX SAT test dates over two years.

And this is the radical suggestion, make the December NAC Div I/II/III/VET and add a day, the November NAC Cadet/Y14 shorten a day and add the Junior to the October NAC or some other combination. Then at least one of the three dates is clear. (The November NAC was not always Jr/Cdt/Y14. There was a different combination the years when there was a Jr WC.) But as I stated that is the radical suggestion.

Maybe the November 2009 NAC could also be postponed a week. In the future the USFA, will check the college board schedule and try not to conflict with SAT test dates. Perhaps there should also be a survey of school November holidays.

[hello?]

I'm absolutely flabbergasted.

And can I say that I am flabbergasted that you are flabbergasted?

[mlr2fence]

Please. The whole point here is that in most of these cases, the FENCER has a choice. Oh, the NAC falls during finals, then you can CHOOSE to give up a couple of parties and study ahead of time....The problem with SATs is that the only choice is not attending one or the other. (And SATs usually affect Juniors and Seniors -- two years, not one). Parties, family reunions...well, of course, the USFA cannot take every single member 's INDIVIDUAL needs into account (I happen to give up my best friend's Holiday Party extravaganza every year because of the December NAC), but SATs? Those dates are easily checked. And they affect an important segment of the fencing population -- and here we seem to have a case where THREE NACs conflict with SAT dates. Did they bother to check?.....And, again, my daughter graduated from college already. I have no personal interest here. But I do think it's ridiculous.

Its kind of hard to CHOOSE to give up some parties and study ahead of time if finals and NACS conflict when the day of one's event is the same day as a final. Hard to be in 2 places doing 2 different activities at the same time.

No one is disagreeing in that trying to avoid SAT dates is a good thing but is not always possible and other fencers have to skip NACs so not too much sympathy if a HS kid has to skip one. Every time you cater to one group you run the risk of making things more difficult to another.

Have you thought of taking the SAT at the city where the NAC is being held? The exams do not need to be taken in one's home town--they can be taken wherever they are offered.

[teacup]

No one is disagreeing in that trying to avoid SAT dates is a good thing but is not always possible and other fencers have to skip NACs so not too much sympathy if a HS kid has to skip one. Every time you cater to one group you run the risk of making things more difficult to another.

As JEC originally wrote the USFA used to distribute a calendar with national events, SAT dates, international competitions such as Worlds, Pan Am's etc.

Obviously they were trying not to conflict national events with these special events. Somehow, somewhere, this procedure stopped being done. It was important then, and should be important now. This isn't a situation of trying to cater to one group but realizing that some things are important not to schedule against.

[hello?]

Its kind of hard to CHOOSE to give up some parties and study ahead of time if finals and NACS conflict when the day of one's event is the same day as a final. Hard to be in 2 places doing 2 different activities at the same time.

Granted, this is based on a very, very small sample (one). But if you are doing ok in college, you can petition to take your test (even your final) ahead of time. I can guarantee you that this can be done (even in top academic schools). My 'sample' never missed an age- or rating-appropiate NAC in high school or college (of course, she never had to choose between an SAT or a NAC...the SAT would have probably won, to her fencing detriment)......But that is not the point here. The USFA has NO WAY of knowing when colleges or high schools will have their finals, or when Cousin Minnie will get married, or Uncle John DIE (or when my best friend will have his holiday extravaganza)....but they KNOW the SAT dates. And they KNOW that an important number of USFA fencers will have or might have to take these tests -- more than once. It's simple: AVOID THOSE DATES! Sorry, I see it as a no-brainer. Even though, like I said before, the Evil Fencer inside of me is saying: "Well, less 17-year-olds for this old-fencer to face at that NAC!" But, oh, SO wrong. (And, I am SURE, a huge OVERSIGHT. Nothing more. I am convinced that some of the USFA decision makers, seeing this thread, are going "Oh crap!")

[JEC]

... some of the USFA decision makers, seeing this thread, are going "Oh crap!")

The intent of the thread was twofold: One was just described by hello? above. The other reason was to rally support among parents/fencers to make them aware that this conflict is avoidable in the future. Please email USFA staff and let them know this (avoiding SAT testing conflict) was important and remains very important for the core of the membership being served (NAC-B is Junior/Cadet/Y14).

There is a contract already in place for Kansas City. It would cost too much money (which we are lacking) to reschedule the NAC, but USFA could schedule all 6 Junior events in the last 2 days (Sunday and Monday).

[usafencer]

Also if you're kid is good enough to make junior points, have them take the SAT in October, if not they're prob not good enough to fence the Div1 have them take it in December. While most colleges do require 2/3 SAT II's most don't require a language, and unless you're insanely good at a language or intend to major in it, taking that SAT II probably isn't the best call anyways.

There are, however, some programs at colleges that specifically require a language SAT-II score. The Hunstman Program at UPenn is the first that comes to mind.
http://www.upenn.edu/huntsman/admit.html

[teacup]

Have you thought of taking the SAT at the city where the NAC is being held? The exams do not need to be taken in one's home town--they can be taken wherever they are offered.

I can't imagine that to obtain best SAT results, taking them while suffering from jet lag, is usually recommended.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Some schools may be requiring more SATIIs, but some schools don't require standardized tests at all anymore, including good ones.

I agree, however, about the GRE thing. There are a few paper dates, for the kinds of places that can't accommodate the computer testing thing, but mostly you take it when you have the time. The adaptive thing might brain**** the high schoolers even more than those taking GRE/GMATs.

Yes, when at all possible, the USFA ought to try to avoid such conflicts. But seriously, at least they have an excuse for when they fail. My junior year, I didn't get to go to the senior prom (most of my friends were a year above me) because I was taking the SATs the next morning. My high school was a testing center for that date, so they knew the conflict. Still kinda bitter, not going to lie.

[teacup]

According to the College board schedule future SAT tests dates are determined as follows:

According to our formula, test dates fall on the first Saturday in November, December, May and June; the second Saturday in October and March; and the fourth Saturday in January.

PSAT Dates (Which are given to almost all Juniors in high school.)
According to our formula, test dates fall on the third Saturday in October and the preceding Wednesday.

[Inspector Gadget]

That's a rough schedule. I'm surpised that colleges now require you to have perfect attendance at NAC's for admittance.

I'm curious what kind of potential college freshman would be eligible to particpate in all three NAC's?

It looks likes you'll have to get a testing done early in the summer.

Or is the problem that SAT testing must happen on the Nov 7, 8 date?

So should the house of representatives have perfect attendance.

[Inspector Gadget]

Mr Teacup I have to let you know that several years ago when I was doing a bunch of watercolors, I did a really nice floral in a teacup - it was all subconscious, I never even realized it until after it was painted- my good paintings are with my relatives, except for a few, one day when everyone understands the wonder of fencing.net and it's people, they'll know the floral that I did - it will become one of those things that people search for but few find.

[Poulet]

Uhh...there is a pretty simple solution:

Register and take the SAT in the city the tournament is in. The USFA can accommodate the various weapons/genders by rotating the fencing schedule over the three conflicting tournaments to make sure that everyone has a chance to take the SAT on whatever day it is.

Sure it's not perfect, but it's a reasonable solution.