Is NJ qualifiers went MAD?

[Fencing-Workout]

Just come back from a very frustrating experience, of NJ Junior national Qualifiers.

I don't know who organizers think they are, but they definitely shouldn't be organizing events as they clearly demonstrated lack of experience, no respect to to the event guests and a lot of attitude.

It was a nonsense to me: that neither coach, nor parents allowed to be with in the 50 meters distance of the fencing strips, not be able to neither talk nor clearly see the fencing bouts.

After infinite arguments they com-up with an "Official Requirement",
let me ask who approved that? Is this now an USFA rule, or just some-one
is making "genius" decisions for all of us:


There were plenty of benches within 30 feet distance of the strips.
Yet coaches and parents were removed from these due to the "safety issue".
Is any-one with the common sense can believe that electric fencing could be dangerous from this distance? This is not archery, last time I checked:



And all of us (it is a big event over 100 fencers for 3 weapons multiply to 1-2 parents and coaches) All these people were stocked into 6 feet wide area near the restrooms....




My point here is that, when you are creating an event of this size, you should at least have some experience on how to handle your guests. And I underline these are guests, and you do not treat them as animals in the cowshed...

If you are unable, you should not have any business near this area, and some-one qualified should be doing your job.


I would like to ask parents and coaches, if you were part of this madness, please comment, as I am going to take this matter to the USFA level. This can not continue like this.

[fdad]

I am not surprised that this went badly. The current NJ Division officers can't even run an election, they have no business running the Mid-Atlantic U19 Sectional qualifier. In an effort to not allow any division clubs to host major qualifying events, they host at gyms and pack too many temporary strips into small areas. In addition, some good directors are excluded since they are not part of the ruling faction.

Can anyone that was there post some results here, the division usually takes a few days to post results when they run events.

[AndrewH]

Wow, clearly you have never been to a NAC. Did your kid qualify? If so you'll be surprised to learn that at nationals, you won't be allowed to stand next to the strip either. All spectators have to stay outside the pods. Only one coach may have access to the fencer during a DE, and they must remain in a designated area while the bout is going on.

The issue at hand is both safety and creating a comfortable environment for the fencers and the referees to work. If you're trying to walk from one end of the room to the other, chances are you'll pass by the ends of several strips. A fencer retreating fast off the end of the strip can crash into you, a fleching fencer can continue off the strip into you, etc. I know this is a very real possibility because I've been a part of it (I've been run off the strip and crashed into a spectator who was wandering by).

As for the referees, it's very distracting to see people walking through the area between you and the strip, even in peripheral vision. Not to mention many people who are completely oblivious and walk right between the referee and the strip. I've had this happen to me also, several times. Many more times I've had to put out my arm to physically block someone from walking right in front of me as I'm refereeing. That's not where my attention should be during a bout.

If you've only ever been to local tournaments, you probably never see these kinds of rules in place. They're almost never used. That doesn't make it OK though, and I applaud the organizers for working to create the best experience possible for the fencers and the referees. I wasn't involved with this event, but I happen to know that Sharon Everson was involved as an organizer, and I'm inclined to trust her judgement.

fdad, the results from Saturday are up already. As for referees, who specifically are you saying was excluded due to not being part of the ruling faction? I've refereed for the NJ division plenty and I can tell you that anyone qualified is given a chance. Feel free to pm me if you don't want to name names in the open, but I'm really not sure what examples you might have.

[Rockstar44]

Wow, clearly you have never been to a NAC. Did your kid qualify? If so you'll be surprised to learn that at nationals, you won't be allowed to stand next to the strip either. All spectators have to stay outside the pods. Only one coach may have access to the fencer during a DE, and they must remain in a designated area while the bout is going on.

I will only address this portion of your response. Having been to lots of NACs, and having worked a number of them, this post makes me question your motivation. Yes, at NACs spectators are allowed to stand "next" to the strip. Yes, there is a barrier, that is ten feet away from the strip (you know this). The pods are arranged for the maximum benefit of the spectators (you know this). And, since you know these things, why are you trying to make it look any different that it really is?

I may have thought that this complaint was sour grapes until I read your response. It appears that you are trying to justify whatever happened (in all fairness, I was not there) by painting a picture of NACs that is not accurate in order to justify what took place at your qualifier.

There may have been legitimate reasons for doing what you did, but don't try to justify it by saying that it's just like a NAC.

Because it isn't.

In closing, I would like to say thanks. The antics of the NJ Division are always good for a laugh.

[Rockstar44]

It was a nonsense to me: that neither coach, nor parents allowed to be with in the 50 meters distance of the fencing strips, not be able to neither talk nor clearly see the fencing bouts.

After infinite arguments they com-up with an "Official Requirement",
let me ask who approved that? Is this now an USFA rule, or just some-one
is making "genius" decisions for all of us: There were plenty of benches within 30 feet distance of the strips.

Was it really 50 meters? That's about a city block in most towns. I find it a little hard to believe that they required that much distance. How many gyms are that big?

Yes, there are USFA rules that cover this. Only Coaches are allowed "inside the pod", and only one. They may not interact with the fencers except during the one minute breaks (ha). Spectators may not "encourage" or otherwise speak to the fencers between the commands of "fence" and "halt" (ha).

While safety is always paramount, I find it hard to accept that all spectators must be kept a block away. There is no USFA regulation that requires anything like this.

Unfortunately for you, the Division may create any "Official Requirement" that they deem necessary. If what you describe is accurate, I question the mental stability of your Division Officers, but the bottom line is that they may make any rules as they see fit.

The NJ Division is famous throughout the USFA for their "creativity". If the members cannot work with them then the answer is to attend the annual election of Officers.

[fdad]

Wow, clearly you have never been to a NAC.

Clearly, you are wrong.

Did your kid qualify?

Yes, thanks for asking. In all events my kid was age, classification eligible, but not at this event.

If so you'll be surprised to learn that at nationals, you won't be allowed to stand next to the strip either. All spectators have to stay outside the pods. Only one coach may have access to the fencer during a DE, and they must remain in a designated area while the bout is going on.

I have been to several NACs. At each one, my kid's coach and I have been able to stand right next to the strip, safely outside the partition, and watch all my kids bouts, including pools. I am able (but strongly discouraged by my kid (:-)) to give encouragement, keep score, track down fruit and drinks, etc.

The issue at hand is both safety and creating a comfortable environment for the fencers and the referees to work. If you're trying to walk from one end of the room to the other, chances are you'll pass by the ends of several strips. A fencer retreating fast off the end of the strip can crash into you, a fleching fencer can continue off the strip into you, etc. I know this is a very real possibility because I've been a part of it (I've been run off the strip and crashed into a spectator who was wandering by).

Yes, safety of fencers and spectators should be a concern. Unfortunately, instead of having these events at one of the larger clubs that have facilities designed for large events, presumably to avoid enriching one fencing club vs. another, NJ Division rents a basketball facility (enriching that vs. a member club) and puts too many temporary strips in too small a space.

As for the referees, it's very distracting to see people walking through the area between you and the strip, even in peripheral vision. Not to mention many people who are completely oblivious and walk right between the referee and the strip. I've had this happen to me also, several times. Many more times I've had to put out my arm to physically block someone from walking right in front of me as I'm refereeing. That's not where my attention should be during a bout.

No it shouldn't, but there are better ways of solving this problem than completely banishing spectators from watching from a reasonable distance.

[Fencing-Workout]

Wow, clearly you have never been to a NAC. Did your kid qualify? If so you'll be surprised to learn that at nationals, you won't be allowed to stand next to the strip either. All spectators have to stay outside the pods. .

Yes, I've been on several NACs and I was able to sit in a 10 feet area next to the strip.

And I was chased away from the bench I depicted in 30 feets from the strip.
Don't tell me that "this is a safety regulation", because it is any-thing but that.

[ToucheVerte]

It was not a good venue for spectating. Even the senior USFA referees seemed to spend a lot of their day trying to keep non-participants off the floor. I felt that there was a sense of "us and them" about the NJ officials, as if they were in a castle under siege, or that the spectators might include subversive elements who had come to cause trouble.

[Mac A. Bee]

...some good directors are excluded since they are not part of the ruling faction...Can anyone that was there post some results here, the division usually takes a few days to post results when they run events.

All Jersey rated referees were availability-queried. The USFA Fencing Officials Commissioner (FOC)/Head Referee hired from those available, with the addition of another FOC and a MidAtlantic 2-rated ref.

Daily results were AskFred-posted each evening.

[Mac A. Bee]

...If you're trying to walk from one end of the room to the other, chances are you'll pass by the ends of several strips. A fencer retreating fast off the end of the strip can crash into you, a fleching fencer can continue off the strip into you...it's very distracting to see people walking through the area between you and the strip...I've had to put out my arm to physically block someone from walking right in front of me

I'm known for shooing fencers, coaches and parents out of Ref'ing Zones and off Run-Offs. Andrew excellently summarized my motivation, i.e. safety and distraction from providing the best arbitration I can. I was heartened that one of USFA's most highly-regarded Fencing Officials Commissioner, as our Head Referee, supported our efforts so that at future Division and club events, incursions will no longer be an issue.

By the way, the same FOC was even more vigorous than I enforcing hair-off-lames, so Jersey coaches and fencers - be advised.

[fdad]

All Jersey rated referees were availability-queried. The USFA Fencing Officials Commissioner (FOC)/Head Referee hired from those available, with the addition of another FOC and a MidAtlantic 2-rated ref.

Daily results were AskFred-posted each evening.

Thanks for clarifying that the USFA was responsible for referee hiring at this event.

[fdad]

I'm known for shooing fencers, coaches and parents out of Ref'ing Zones and off Run-Offs. Andrew excellently summarized my motivation, i.e. safety and distraction from providing the best arbitration I can. I was heartened that one of USFA's most highly-regarded Fencing Officials Commissioner, as our Head Referee, supported our efforts so that at future Division and club events, incursions will no longer be an issue.

By the way, the same FOC was even more vigorous than I enforcing hair-off-lames, so Jersey coaches and fencers - be advised.

I am glad to hear that the rules were enforced. Hopefully this new-found zealousness for enforcement will carry over into the actual facilities so you are no longer trying to compensate for inapprorpriate facilities (with less than a meter of run off at end of strip or strips too close together) by banishing spectators from the event.

[AndrewH]

fdad, most of my original post wasn't directed towards you, just the bit about referee hiring. Which, by the way, I'm still interested in hearing examples of.

As for the difference in space between a NAC and this qualifier, this qualifier obviously had less of it to work with, as convention center space is pricey in this part of the country. Instead of trying to establish sports zones around the strips that probably would have ended up overlapping, the next best step was to just limit access to the fencing area. Let's not forget who the customers are- the fencers. The mission of the tournament staff is to provide the best possible experience for the fencers, not the parents and coaches.

As for the reason these events are held at outside venues instead of clubs, it's not a matter of intentionally withholding money from the clubs. Qualifiers used to be held at various NJ clubs until people started griping about how the clubs weren't properly equipped, didn't have enough space, too far to get to, not enough grounded strips, etc. Holding events in rented space at least cuts down on those complaints. In my experience I've never felt like there wasn't enough space in one of these venues, whether fencing or reffing. On the other hand, I have fenced/reffed in some clubs that I felt were pretty tight on space in regards to runoff, strip spacing and spectator room.

[TBean]

As for the difference in space between a NAC and this qualifier, this qualifier obviously had less of it to work with, as convention center space is pricey in this part of the country. Instead of trying to establish sports zones around the strips that probably would have ended up overlapping, the next best step was to just limit access to the fencing area. Let's not forget who the customers are- the fencers. The mission of the tournament staff is to provide the best possible experience for the fencers, not the parents and coaches.

I might be willing to work with you on this - to a point. While I get you don't have unlimited space, and had to do something, excluding coaches from having access to their athletes - at any time - is not allowing the best possible experience for the fencer. Coaches are there for the benefit their fencers - not because they had nothing better to do on a Sunday afternoon. They need to have access to the fencer to provide insight during/between the pool bouts, as well as getting a sense of how their fencer is performing on that particular day, and how to best help them during the DE.

[Goldgar]

Hi, Max.

Just come back from a very frustrating experience, of NJ Junior national Qualifiers.

Actually, this was the Mid-Atlantic Junior Sectional Championships and National Qualifiers. The tournament was run by the Mid-Atlantic Section, not New jersey Division. I was there as a referee.

I don't know who organizers think they are, but they definitely shouldn't be organizing events as they clearly demonstrated lack of experience, no respect to to the event guests and a lot of attitude.

I don't think you'll find anyone who will agree with you that Sharon Everson lacks experience. Attitude, now ...

It was a nonsense to me: that neither coach, nor parents allowed to be with in the 50 meters distance of the fencing strips, not be able to neither talk nor clearly see the fencing bouts.

After infinite arguments they com-up with an "Official Requirement",
let me ask who approved that? Is this now an USFA rule, or just some-one
is making "genius" decisions for all of us

Yes, it is an official rule that spectators and coaches are not allowed in the sport zone during the pools. If anything, the way things were laid out was the result of the extensive experience of the organizers with USFA competitions, not their inexperience.

While I agree that, with barriers of some kind to mark out the sport zones, there could have been room for spectators closer to the action, bear in mind that this was not a large convention center such as the USFA uses for national events. There were no ready-made barriers available to be used.

I suppose they could have rented barriers from somewhere for the purpose, or (more likely) taped off zones on the floor. That would probably have worked, though I'm sure we refs would have had to spend more time shooing people back out of the sports zone than we did. I think I would have been willing to do that, if anyone had asked me. But apparently they chose to do it by the book.

That was inconvenient for the spectators in this case, but not really such a great outrage.

[griffindm]

This was a great disservice to any fencer that paid for a coach to provide guidance during the event. I heard scuttlebutt that this was done largely to avoid spectators/coaches "swaying" the decisions of refs. If this was the case, then it was a reffing issue, not a safety issue.

[Mac A. Bee]

...this was done largely to avoid spectators/coaches "swaying" the decisions of refs.

All but one of us worked NACs where we're under National coaches' scrutiny. The one who hasn't, has ref'd Jersey's high schools championships and the MACFA finals.

[AndrewH]

I might be willing to work with you on this - to a point. While I get you don't have unlimited space, and had to do something, excluding coaches from having access to their athletes - at any time - is not allowing the best possible experience for the fencer.

The fencers are free to leave the piste between pool bouts to speak to their coach, just like any national competition. For DE's, like the sign in the picture said, one coach per athlete may stand at the end of the strip.

This was a great disservice to any fencer that paid for a coach to provide guidance during the event. I heard scuttlebutt that this was done largely to avoid spectators/coaches "swaying" the decisions of refs. If this was the case, then it was a reffing issue, not a safety issue.

Like the sign in the picture said, one coach per fencer during DE's. If coaches are allowed to be by the strip for DE's, I don't see how the policy could have been meant to limit referee/coach interaction.

[Coach]

I was at the event as a coach, while I found it a bit challenging during the pool bouts it wasn't really that big a problem. During the direct elimination bouts (where a coach can have the most impact) we were allowed in to do our jobs. Overall, I found it to be well run and well reffed.

[Rick Shellhouse]

The fencers are free to leave the piste between pool bouts to speak to their coach, just like any national competition. For DE's, like the sign in the picture said, one coach per athlete may stand at the end of the strip.

My fencer was on the far side of the gym. There was no clear view of the action as 4 strips were between me and him. The two times I could get his attention I had to scream personally I tried not to call him because I thought that would be distracting. He then had to cross the entire gym past/thru the 4 strips. The fencers located at the strips next to the retaining wall had a distinct advantage as they remained close to their strips and were allowed to walk over anytime without having to worry about being called on a far strip.

Remember even at a NAC the largest distance between you and your fencer even in poule bouts is about 10 feet and they can walk to the rope at any time. So if this was suppose to be "like a NAC" then pods should have been set up like a NAC then the argument that they could leave the strip like a NAC would actually hold water.

And lets not forget the basketball game going on between the two fencing areas.