Is NJ qualifiers went MAD?

[telkanuru]

Not all bends in the vertical plane are allowed. Its only legal if its under 1cm. Granted, I'm not going to give a card for it unless its a huge bend, and the fencer refuses to actually fix it.

That's because you are SANE.

[Allen Evans]

Honestly, I don't have any perspective on NJ, but as someone just idly surfing the forums, I must say that Rick Shellhouse is making far more coherent and sensical arguments than those arguing against him. +Rep to Rick...

Well, except for the part where he starts making up rules...

[fdad]

Read the rules.

t 82.3. Everybody taking part in or present at a fencing competition must
remain orderly and must not disturb the smooth running of the
competition. During bouts no one is allowed to go near the pistes,
to give advice to the fencers, to criticise the Referee or the judges,
to insult them or to attempt to influence them in any way. Even the
team captain must remain in the space assigned to him and he may
only intervene in the situations and in the manner provided for in
Article t.90 of the Rules. The Referee must stop immediately any
activity which disturbs the smooth running of the bout which he is
refereeing (cf. t.96.1–3).

My emphasis

Your emphasis changes the meaning. The point of the rule is that "no one is allowed to go near the pistes" for any of the reasons that follow. As far as I know, there is no rule against giving advice to fencers from an area not "near" the piste as long as it does not disturb order (or uses an earpiece).

[RITFencing]

The rule states that no advice may be given to the fencer between "Fence" and "Halt." In between touches, it is perfectly legal so long as it does not disrupt order on the strip.

[Mac A. Bee]

So you carded a new foilist for having a legal curve in her blade that was created during an action and then confiscated her weapon?...Refs who throw cards for hair, bends, and socks go to the special hell

The fencer had an unsafe illegal curve that she couldn't straighten. I confiscated to prevent an accident.

Our Head Referee, an FOC in charge of domestic ref development, emphasized hair lame penalties. I made sure the ladies complied to avoid being penalized.

[swordwench]

The rule states that no advice may be given to the fencer between "Fence" and "Halt." In between touches, it is perfectly legal so long as it does not disrupt order on the strip.

It is my understanding that this is one of the many differences in wording between the FIE and USFA rules book. Pinkelephant is quoting the FIE book, which does NOT contain the phrase you're citing.

The USFA version says:
During bouts (between the command “Fence” and “Halt,”) no one is allowed to go near the strips or to give advice to the fencers. At no time is one allowed to criticize the Officials or thier descisions, to insult them or to attempt to influence them in any way.

The absence of that parenthetical phrase changes the meaning quite a bit, IMO. It's the difference between allowing any form of strip-coaching and NOT.

Personally, I'm pretty disturbed that the USFA version didn't get a thorough spell-check before publication. C'mon... to misspell THEIR and DECISIONS in one paragraph?

[Allen Evans]

Yes, the translation in England uses the FIE rule directly, where the USFA rules allow coaching after the word "halt" and before the word "fence" in a bout.

PinkElephant is correct, you MUST read the rule book.

But it must be the correct rule book for the country you're in.

[fdad]

It is my understanding that this is one of the many differences in wording between the FIE and USFA rules book. Pinkelephant is quoting the FIE book, which does NOT contain the phrase you're citing.

The USFA version says:
During bouts (between the command “Fence” and “Halt,”) no one is allowed to go near the strips or to give advice to the fencers. At no time is one allowed to criticize the Officials or thier descisions, to insult them or to attempt to influence them in any way.

The absence of that parenthetical phrase changes the meaning quite a bit, IMO. It's the difference between allowing any form of strip-coaching and NOT.

Personally, I'm pretty disturbed that the USFA version didn't get a thorough spell-check before publication. C'mon... to misspell THEIR and DECISIONS in one paragraph?

Wow, the bolded section seems to place most members of this forum in violation of the rules ;-)

[pinkelephant]

Yes, the translation in England uses the FIE rule directly, where the USFA rules allow coaching after the word "halt" and before the word "fence" in a bout.

PinkElephant is correct, you MUST read the rule book.

But it must be the correct rule book for the country you're in.

Indeed. But what happens when US fencers and coaches leave the US and become subject to FIE rules? Not very fair to them to have to learn one set of rules at home and another set elsewhere.

[Hauptman]

As a complete outsider, basing my opinion only on what I have seen represented here on F.net, I would say that youth fencing in N.J. is out of control.

While the growth and popularity is a good thing, the political in-fighting and intrusion of personal egos from parents, coaches, and aspiring "politicians" is just plain ugly.

Given the constant headaches and conflicts, I would kick out everyone except the fencers and officials, and let the kids fence in peace.

[Allen Evans]

Indeed. But what happens when US fencers and coaches leave the US and become subject to FIE rules? Not very fair to them to have to learn one set of rules at home and another set elsewhere.

We're very flexiable...and after the first card, I usually shut up.

[pinkelephant]

We're very flexiable...and after the first card, I usually shut up.

I usually find I don't need actually to produce the card - a teacherly look with a twitch towards the blazer pocket usually does the trick

[pinkelephant]

Your emphasis changes the meaning. The point of the rule is that "no one is allowed to go near the pistes" for any of the reasons that follow. As far as I know, there is no rule against giving advice to fencers from an area not "near" the piste as long as it does not disturb order (or uses an earpiece).

Your interpretation would be correct but for that little comma after the word "pistes". The comma makes it into a list of prohibited actions, not a single prohibited action with added reasons. Spectators are not allowed to do any of the things on the list.

[Inquartata]

I'm enjoying the semantic quibbling.

But---shims and weights and official tolerances and blade bends...once again I am reminded why I do not fence those silly point-only weapons!

[VorpalCat]

We're very flexiable...and after the first card, I usually shut up.

There you go being funny again. Keep this up and no one will believe you're really you!

[telkanuru]

The fencer had an unsafe illegal curve that she couldn't straighten. I confiscated to prevent an accident.

I'm sure we'll meander back to the point where you decided an upwards curve was unsafe or illegal, but for now let's stick to the part where you CARDED HER FOR IT.

Our Head Referee, an FOC in charge of domestic ref development, emphasized hair lame penalties. I made sure the ladies complied to avoid being penalized.

I'll withhold comment here, just so I don't get stuck with Marshal Davis or someone equally terrible reffing my every bout for the next 10 years.

[Rockstar44]

t 82.3. Everybody taking part in or present at a fencing competition must
remain orderly and must not disturb the smooth running of the
competition. During bouts no one is allowed to go near the pistes,
to give advice to the fencers, to criticise the Referee or the judges,
to insult them or to attempt to influence them in any way. Even the
team captain must remain in the space assigned to him and he may
only intervene in the situations and in the manner provided for in
Article t.90 of the Rules. The Referee must stop immediately any
activity which disturbs the smooth running of the bout which he is
refereeing (cf. t.96.1–3).

My emphasis

Your emphasis changes the meaning. The point of the rule is that "no one is allowed to go near the pistes" for any of the reasons that follow. As far as I know, there is no rule against giving advice to fencers from an area not "near" the piste as long as it does not disturb order (or uses an earpiece).

Your interpretation would be correct but for that little comma after the word "pistes". The comma makes it into a list of prohibited actions, not a single prohibited action with added reasons. Spectators are not allowed to do any of the things on the list.

fdad, without going into an English lesson, just substitute the word "or" for every comma in that sentence and you will understand the meaning of the rule.

pinkelephant is clearly correct in his interpretation of the rule.

[Inquartata]

I'll withhold comment here, just so I don't get stuck with Marshal Davis or someone equally terrible reffing my every bout for the next 10 years.

My sources inform me that your particular dread has been duly noted. I can let you know in confidence that your assigned piste in Tartarus will be somewhere between Tantalus' lake and Sisyphus' hill...

[telkanuru]

The voices in your head do not count as "sources".

[Inquartata]

Non sequitur.