Is NJ qualifiers went MAD?

[jeff]

Irrelevant to my point that a parent or coach doesn't have standing to interfere in the process of running the bout. t.93 Spectators are obliged not to interfere with the good order of a competition, to do nothing which may tend to influence the fencers or the Referee, and to respect the decisions of the latter even when they do not agree with them.

[Rick Shellhouse]

And irrelevant to the fact a coach standing there who sees his/her fencer carded repeatedly incorrectly can walk over to the bout committee and ask exactly what is going on.

Last ref I caught misapplying the rules was THANKFUL that I brought it to his attention and after checking the rule book with the bout committee thanked me.

However If I had not been within sight (to see him pull the card and the action that led to it) to see the rule misapplied my fencer would have received both a red card and had a touch annulled.

Unfair influence I agree should not be allowed. That's why there are specific rules govern it and the penalties for it. I am the one penalized not my fencer.

Ref weak enough to be swayed should not be reffing a qualifier anyhow should they? Are there not rules concerning who can and can not ref important events? I have seen NJ refs throw black cards at High School events...think one would not at a qualifier? Puhlease

Once again if I was within 10 foot of my fencer as I have been at numerous events (without EVER being carded and only warned ONCE) I would have had no issue with the event.

Sidetrack all you want. The fact remains you can not say "they did it because it was like a NAC and obeyed the NAC rules" when it was not actually SETUP like a NAC.

R

[Purple Fencer]

DURING pool bouts? That's illegal.

Not quite....what's illegal is getting information via an earpiece worn under the mask or some other electronic means.

Yelling such info is not illegal (it's allowable coaching...has been for a few years now)...unless it's so loud or continuous that it interferes with the ref's ability to control the strip and direct the bout (disturbing order).

[oso97]

Now how many fencers know that? Did you know a event must have an "official weights and shim" and a weapon that fails on the strip can be requested to be tested with the official set? Not many know that as well..

Really? Care to cite the rule that says this?

[Mauler]

Everyone who's been disagreeing with Rick Shellhouse on this thread so far, please follow these simple steps:

1) Find a patch of mud. Deeper and stinkier the better.

2) Stick your head in it. Please, deeper the better.

3) Go ahead. Take a deep breath. It will make you feel so much better.

4) Reflect on your sins.

He's been willing to go beyond endless quibbling about technicalities and self-congratulatory delusions in an ever-patient effort to bring focus of discussions back to essence of fencing competitions. For the benefit of all those who fund (parents), participate (fencers), drive (coaches), facilitate (referees) and administer (organizers) the sport.

Referees who envision their role as more than what it is, organizers who see the masses as necessary evil to be herded and quarantined, officers who see themselves as above their constituents...

Shame on you.

Shame on you.

Shame on you.

As a true master of this craft has once said, in the end it's all just a big show. And there are so many parts and processes that come together to make it all work. There are so many parties involved with their own unique interests, ethos and sub-culture in any given fencing tournament. It all works somehow because there exist system of checks and balances, both written and unwritten, that attempt to address mutual interests of all involved.

When you're in the middle of a tournament where all the pieces fit together perfectly and operate in harmony, it's like you're surrounded by... ART. Of course, when everything goes wrong, you're in the middle of a clusterf**k.

For any one sub-group to envision themselves as somehow more important than the essence why they are all there to begin with... For any one sub-group to attempt to usurp power and importance beyond what it necessary for them to perform their own role to their best... For any leadership to see their subjects with contempt...

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

For all those who endure and succeed in spite of what you have to face, we feel for you, and we salute you.





------------------------------
Special thanks for a PM that helped put things into perspective. Always appreciate wisdom and context.

[Rick Shellhouse]

Really? Care to cite the rule that says this?

David,

The rules do not specifically state such however it does state all weights and shim must be provided by the Organising Committee. Why do you think the USFA has Swordmaster provide weights and shims? There is even stated tolerances. Check m.11 m.19 and m.42

Now usually a club may not have brand new weights...Ive seen them beat up...painted and I have never seen them certified before use to test the variances so usually the organizers have a brand new set they keep at the bout committee or handy to address complaints

Now there is no rule stating that they have to have one...but as a fencer...I can ask when and by whom the weight was certified and tested last especially if its painted etc... or the shims are bent The rules state they must meet certain requirements....if I don't believe they do...

R

[oso97]

David,

The rules do not specifically state such however it does state all weights and shim must be provided by the Organising Committee. Why do you think the USFA has Swordmaster provide weights and shims? There is even stated tolerances. Check m.11 m.19 and m.42

Now usually a club may not have brand new weights...Ive seen them beat up...painted and I have never seen them certified before use to test the variances so usually the organizers have a brand new set they keep at the bout committee or handy to address complaints

Now there is no rule stating that they have to have one...but as a fencer...I can ask when and by whom the weight was certified and tested last especially if its painted etc... or the shims are bent The rules state they must meet certain requirements....if I don't believe they do...

R

Of course, and that is a far cry from a fencer being able to say "I want to have my weapon tested by the 'official' weights and shims." THAT is what I take disagreement with especially when you cite it as an actual rule. Its not, and you know its not. As long as the weights and shims at the table meet the specified tolerances, they are totally kosher.

[Rick Shellhouse]

Of course, and that is a far cry from a fencer being able to say "I want to have my weapon tested by the 'official' weights and shims." THAT is what I take disagreement with especially when you cite it as an actual rule. Its not, and you know its not. As long as the weights and shims at the table meet the specified tolerances, they are totally kosher.

But how do you know they meet tolerances?


:-) couldn't resist


R

[notalent]

David,

Now usually a club may not have brand new weights...Ive seen them beat up...painted and I have never seen them certified before use to test the variances so usually the organizers have a brand new set they keep at the bout committee or handy to address complaints


R

You are assuming that brand new = to spec. Considering that isnt always the case a "brand new" set is no more likely to be correct than what is on the table.

[Rick Shellhouse]

You are assuming that brand new = to spec. Considering that isnt always the case a "brand new" set is no more likely to be correct than what is on the table.

This is sorta turning into a threadjack which I prefer to avoid and return the conversation but you are correct but you would assume that a brand new set would be tested before leaving the manufacture..


Rick

[Mac A. Bee]

...comment was that the blades WERE legal but without an advocate to discuss it with the referee...I did not see any testing equipment...

If this was the inexperienced foilista on my strip, twice she came on guard with a blade bent more than 1 cm (m.8 The blade should be as straight as possible. Any curve of the blade must be uniform and the maximum bend must in any case be less than 1 cm; it is only permitted in the vertical plane and must be near the center of the blade.) I had a gauge but didn't use same, having been mentored by an FOC to be able to estimate bend. Each time rather than issuing a Group I card, I asked the fencer to straighten her blade. The third time she came on guard with an upward bend at the point that she couldn't straighten, presenting both a safety hazard and being nonconforming. I confiscated her weapon, issued a penalty and requested her second blade on strip. At this point at a new fencer's local tournament I usually hand the nonconforming equipment to a parent describing what needs to be fixed. The fencer pointed to a group of weapons behind her opponent's run-off area away from the immediate strip area, a violation that I didn't penalize. Responding to my query as to which weapon she wanted, she requested the french-grip, although as I recall there were orthopedic grips as well.

[oso97]

If this was the inexperienced foilista on my strip, twice she came on guard with a blade bent more than 1 cm (m.8 The blade should be as straight as possible. Any curve of the blade must be uniform and the maximum bend must in any case be less than 1 cm; it is only permitted in the vertical plane and must be near the center of the blade.) I had a gauge but didn't use same, having been mentored by an FOC to be able to estimate bend. Each time rather than issuing a Group I card, I asked the fencer to straighten her blade. The third time she came on guard with an upward bend at the point that she couldn't straighten, presenting both a safety hazard and being nonconforming. I confiscated her weapon, issued a penalty and requested her second blade on strip. At this point at a new fencer's local tournament I usually hand the nonconforming equipment to a parent describing what needs to be fixed. The fencer pointed to a group of weapons behind her opponent's run-off area away from the immediate strip area, a violation that I didn't penalize. Responding to my query as to which weapon she wanted, she requested the french-grip, although as I recall there were orthopedic grips as well.

Only mistake I can see there is the issuing of the penalty for the weapon before confiscating it. A weapon that has "gone bad" through fencing actions may be (ahem, SHOULD be. AHEM! MUST BE!) replaced without penalty to the fencer.

Unless the fencer deliberately modified it to be non-conforming. Have to think a bit about a situation I'd be a hard-a$$ enough to issue a card. And it wouldn't be for "non-conforming weapon" it would be for "delay of bout" or maybe "manifest cheating" depending upon what they did.

About the only thing that comes to mind is an epeeist/foilist deliberately ripping the wires out of his socket so he can change it - that would be delay of bout.

Manifest cheating by altering a weapon while on strip. Have to think more about how it might work. One of those kinds of situations where it would be a "Yea, that was really bad." I'm sure it COULD be done, but I guess I'm just not devious enough to think of it off hand.

Paging Dan ... Mr. Duchene ... your wealth of knowledge is requested...


Edit: You were perfectly correct not to give a penalty to her for having here weapons behind her opponent and not behind her. One of the important things to learn as a referee is the motivation behind the rule. The spares were easily accessible. No problem.

[Rick Shellhouse]

A weapon that has "gone bad" through fencing actions may be (ahem, SHOULD be. AHEM! MUST BE!) replaced without penalty to the fencer.

Just thought this was worth repeating


AAAAANNNDDDDD


To pull this back to topic.... Referee allowed fencer to obviously fence two actions with blade before blade became unable to be safely straightened....so the blade could be argued to have gone "bad" during the bout (I once witnessed 13 blades rendered un-usuable in one DE) so as a coach standing 10 feet away from my fencer I would have either said something to my fencer to argue said penalty OR told my fencer to stay hooked up and await my return from the bout committee ...from across a basketball court....no clue what would be going on...


R

[Pieter]

Honestly, I don't have any perspective on NJ, but as someone just idly surfing the forums, I must say that Rick Shellhouse is making far more coherent and sensical arguments than those arguing against him. +Rep to Rick...

[pinkelephant]

Not quite....what's illegal is getting information via an earpiece worn under the mask or some other electronic means.

Yelling such info is not illegal (it's allowable coaching...has been for a few years now)...unless it's so loud or continuous that it interferes with the ref's ability to control the strip and direct the bout (disturbing order).

Read the rules.

t 82.3. Everybody taking part in or present at a fencing competition must
remain orderly and must not disturb the smooth running of the
competition. During bouts no one is allowed to go near the pistes,
to give advice to the fencers, to criticise the Referee or the judges,
to insult them or to attempt to influence them in any way. Even the
team captain must remain in the space assigned to him and he may
only intervene in the situations and in the manner provided for in
Article t.90 of the Rules. The Referee must stop immediately any
activity which disturbs the smooth running of the bout which he is
refereeing (cf. t.96.1–3).

My emphasis

[pinkelephant]

Only mistake I can see there is the issuing of the penalty for the weapon before confiscating it. A weapon that has "gone bad" through fencing actions may be (ahem, SHOULD be. AHEM! MUST BE!) replaced without penalty to the fencer.

Incorrect in this case.

t45.2 However, even during the course of a bout, any fencer whose weapon,
at the moment he presents himself on guard and ready to fence, has a
curve of the blade which exceeds that permitted (cf. m.8.6, m.16.2,
m.23.4) commits an offence in the first group and will be penalised in
accordance with Articles t.114, t.116 and t.120.

[AndrewH]

During bouts no one is allowed to go near the pistes,
to give advice to the fencers, to criticise the Referee or the judges,
to insult them or to attempt to influence them in any way.

Oh man, that's a great one.

[telkanuru]

PS all bends in the vertical plane are permitted, provided they go in a uniform direction. It is lateral bends that render a weapon unusable.

So you carded a new foilist for having a legal curve in her blade that was created during an action and then confiscated her weapon? And you work at a national level?

Dear god please don't ref my pool this weekend.

Refs who throw cards for hair, bends, and socks go to the special hell, the one reserved for child molesters and people who talk at the theater.

[Mr Epee]

Wow. Not really your week.

About the only thing that comes to mind is an epeeist/foilist deliberately ripping the wires out of his socket so he can change it - that would be delay of bout.

Yes, cheating delays the bout, but delaying the bout is not the appropriate specific penalty for the situation you describe above, nor is it even in the same class of penalties.

You do a disservice to the fencing community with lazy application of the rules.

Edit: You were perfectly correct not to give a penalty to her for having here weapons behind her opponent and not behind her. One of the important things to learn as a referee is the motivation behind the rule. The spares were easily accessible. No problem.

And perfectly INCORRECT for not making sure her equipment was in the right place at the start of the bout. That should be part of the mental checklist for every referee.

[catwood1]

PS all bends in the vertical plane are permitted, provided they go in a uniform direction. It is lateral bends that render a weapon unusable.

So you carded a new foilist for having a legal curve in her blade that was created during an action and then confiscated her weapon? And you work at a national level?

Dear god please don't ref my pool this weekend.

Refs who throw cards for hair, bends, and socks go to the special hell, the one reserved for child molesters and people who talk at the theater.

Not all bends in the vertical plane are allowed. Its only legal if its under 1cm. Granted, I'm not going to give a card for it unless its a huge bend, and the fencer refuses to actually fix it.