Is NJ qualifiers went MAD?

[Rick Shellhouse]

Yes, it is an official rule that spectators and coaches are not allowed in the sport zone during the pools. If anything, the way things were laid out was the result of the extensive experience of the organizers with USFA competitions, not their inexperience.

While I agree that, with barriers of some kind to mark out the sport zones, there could have been room for spectators closer to the action, bear in mind that this was not a large convention center such as the USFA uses for national events. There were no ready-made barriers available to be used.

I suppose they could have rented barriers from somewhere for the purpose, or (more likely) taped off zones on the floor. That would probably have worked, though I'm sure we refs would have had to spend more time shooing people back out of the sports zone than we did. I think I would have been willing to do that, if anyone had asked me. But apparently they chose to do it by the book.

That was inconvenient for the spectators in this case, but not really such a great outrage.

Dirk...

If they set it up correctly i.e. pods with proper spectator/coaching space even semi close to a NAC setup then I would have had no complaints. If they lacked the space to setup correctly then that shows a lack of planning or some other arrangement should have been made.

There was also the fact that no one was actually enforcing the rule (albeit with a few exceptions) but numerous times I pointed out coaches who got the benefit of coaching their students because no one stopped them whereas I chose to obey the inane ruling.

People continue to scream it was "just like a NAC"..... well minus the actual space to set up the pods like a NAC..

:-)


R

[AndrewH]

If they set it up correctly i.e. pods with proper spectator/coaching space even semi close to a NAC setup then I would have had no complaints. If they lacked the space to setup correctly then that shows a lack of planning or some other arrangement should have been made.

Oh, absolutely, that would have been preferable. I wasn't there but I've been in that venue before, and I'm not sure there would have been space to do so. That's why I'm saying that making one big sports zone was probably the next best thing.

As for lacking space... space is expensive around here. Renting a space suitable for fencing and large enough to create barricaded sports zone with sufficient aisles between them would likely have put the event in the red.

[Rick Shellhouse]

As for lacking space... space is expensive around here. Renting a space suitable for fencing and large enough to create barricaded sports zone with sufficient aisles between them would likely have put the event in the red.

Well this is a whole different ball of issues....for a different thread

I personally believe there is a much better way to handle it.

I will be glad to lay it out for you if ya wish but its fairly long...Dan from Drew liked my ideas and I believe adopted a few for the college folks

R

[RITFencing]

Perhaps this is my own cynicism and contempt for the NJ fencing scene coming out, but here goes anyway:

All but one of us worked NACs where we're under National coaches' scrutiny. The one who hasn't, has ref'd Jersey's high schools championships and the MACFA finals.

Yes, because referees at NACs are all excellent and clearly not subject to influence, and MACFA/NJHS finals are known for the quality of reffing.

Also, if the FOC in question is the one famous for throwing as many cards as possible for things like bent blades and hair on lames, which are all easily fixed without cards, things like that (and being overzealous about making sure everyone stays super far away from the reffing zone) are examples of poor strip control and of referees inserting themselves into bouts.

The fencers are the most important people at a competition, and very little cheeses me off like referees trying to impose their will on everyone around in the guise of giving a good fencing experience.

I am not accusing you of necessarily doing so, but given my experience with the USFA and several warning flags around this thread, I wonder if many refs/BC officials were guilty of going overboard and hurting the fencing rather than facilitating it.

[pinkelephant]

They need to have access to the fencer to provide insight during/between the pool bouts...

DURING pool bouts? That's illegal.

The fencers I coach invariably have to do without my input for most of the time, as I'm either reffing, or running a computer, at just about everything I take them to. And that applied to my own offspring when they were kids as well. They are better fencers as a result, as they have had to learn to think for themselves.

[AndrewH]

I will be glad to lay it out for you if ya wish but its fairly long...Dan from Drew liked my ideas and I believe adopted a few for the college folks

I'm absolutely interested. Maybe you could start a new thread so we don't hijack this one?

[AndrewH]

Oh and fdad, if you're still reading this thread, I'm still interested in examples to back up your accusation. I'm really interested as to which referees have been passed over for political reasons.

[Inquartata]

The fencers are the most important people at a competition,

Hah, Rene Roch disagrees. Clearly the spectators are the most important people in fencing, and should always be accomodated at all costs. This situation was a travesty! A travesty!

[catwood1]

Oh and fdad, if you're still reading this thread, I'm still interested in examples to back up your accusation. I'm really interested as to which referees have been passed over for political reasons.

I don't know what he was referring to, but this DID happen number of times this season. The problem has been fixed, and this is no longer the current practice.

[AndrewH]

I don't know what he was referring to, but this DID happen number of times this season. The problem has been fixed, and this is no longer the current practice.

I'm still curious. Want to PM me with the details? I'm trying but can't really think of good referees who weren't hired because of their associations.

[Fencing-Workout]

The reason I created this thread was to clarify,
that on the events like this there are multiple stakeholders:

• Fencers
• Coaches
• Referees
• Parents

And interests of all parties should be preserved.
The event should not not designed with one thought in mind that referees will get best experience possible, and the rest doesn't matter.


As of fencer not needing support during pools:

My experience: My daughter had to fence foil with French grip because
all of her weapons were banned for "being bended" (clearly below 10 mm) or loose point. If I would be around - these would be easily fixed (no yellow card). This was not "best fencing experience" for her.

Some other girl: collapsed on the strip. Parents were not around. Instead of glass of water or any other initial medical support she was offered a cell phone to call her parents... I bet this was also not a "best experience" for her.

[fencerwallet]

My daughter had to fence foil with French grip because all of her weapons were banned for "being bended" (clearly below 10 mm) or loose point. If I would be around - these would be easily fixed (no yellow card).

This wasn't an RYC. She should know herself how to correct issues with her weapon(s), or at least be able to recognize a problem with them before she shows up at a strip.

[Rick Shellhouse]

Answered in Venue thread

[Rick Shellhouse]

This wasn't an RYC. She should know herself how to correct issues with her weapon(s), or at least be able to recognize a problem with them before she shows up at a strip.

I believe is comment was that the blades WERE legal but without an advocate to discuss it with the referee his fencer was over ruled perhaps unjustly.

I did not see any testing equipment so unless it was massively bent there would be no reason to remove it from the strip and a much more experienced advocate could point out unless the event had the necessary ability to test said arc the referee's personal belief is not a valid reason for removal.

Now how many fencers know that? Did you know a event must have an "official weights and shim" and a weapon that fails on the strip can be requested to be tested with the official set? Not many know that as well..

I think that was the point he was reaching for...

R

[RITFencing]

This wasn't an RYC. She should know herself how to correct issues with her weapon(s), or at least be able to recognize a problem with them before she shows up at a strip.

Agreed. A fencer's equipment should be their own responsibility.

However, the fact that a fencer who collapsed was given a cell and told to call her parents would be laughable if it didn't make me want to cry.

[jeff]

As of fencer not needing support during pools:

My experience: My daughter had to fence foil with French grip because
all of her weapons were banned for "being bended" (clearly below 10 mm) or loose point. If I would be around - these would be easily fixed (no yellow card). This was not "best fencing experience" for her.

Some other girl: collapsed on the strip. Parents were not around. Instead of glass of water or any other initial medical support she was offered a cell phone to call her parents... I bet this was also not a "best experience" for her.

I wasn't there, but am surprised by these two examples. If the equipment was non-conforming, then there's a yellow card regardless of whether the parent is there or not. Its the fencer's responsibility not that of any 3rd party.

Were the parents of the child who collapsed at the venue at all? If they were, then they could have been close enough to see the situation - or if they were on the other end of the room a quick cell call to get them to hustle over seems to be a reasonable way to get them. If they dropped a young kid off at the venue and left, well I think that's a poor choice on their part, but if it was my kid I still would want to be notified ASAP. I would immediately seek medical attention for the child, too.

FWIW, the results were posted Monday morning - the very next day after the event completed. I think that's fast enough service.

[Rick Shellhouse]

I wasn't there, but am surprised by these two examples. If the equipment was non-conforming, then there's a yellow card regardless of whether the parent is there or not. Its the fencer's responsibility not that of any 3rd party.

Ahhh and nobody has ever argued a ruling with a ref at oh say the Olympics say about going off the strip that reversed the outcome of a Olympic event....


You are absolutely correct every fencer and every ref should have every rule memorized before stepping on the strip....there should never be any need for a third party

We all know by now that the refs are right below your deity of choice and never make any judgment calls perhaps incorrectly

I mean come on Jeff...you know there have been multiple incidences where a third party has either been a help or a hindrance....and its the old adage better to free 100 guilty people...than imprison 1 innocent one...


R

[RITFencing]

Wait a minute, though... the weapons were banned for being too bent? Why wasn't she told to straighten them? Even when a card is given for coming on guard with a blade bent beyond the requirement, the ref should tell the fencer to simply straighten it. Confiscation should not be required, IMHO...

[jeff]

Rick, if the fencer wants to argue any call, then they are free to, subject to the rules for unjustified appeal. If a parent or a coach comes to the strip and interjects himself or herself into the situation to argue against a call I make, my first action will be to hold up a yellow card.

It's not about freeing an guilty person or imprisoning an innocent one - don't be melodramatic. It's about fairly and impartially implementing the rules to the best of one's ability. To let an "innocent" person slide with an infraction of the rules is to bias the event against their opponent, which the referee must never do. We are talking about a nationals qualifier here "the first round of the national championships" in effect. Fencers and officials should adhere to the standards of the national event.

And don't confuse the issue here: a fencer's parents or coach is not there to provide an impartial advice for a level playing field to obtain the fairest result, but to influence events to the benefit of their fencer - which means to the disadvantage of the opponent. A ref should not permit that to happen.

All refs make mistakes, to be sure. To let a bystander influence your calls is a mistake they should not make.

EDIT: I would have said "straighten your blade" to a fencer coming on guard with an excessively bent weapon. But I wasn't there, didn't witness the situation, and don't know the full story.

[Rick Shellhouse]

Fencers and officials should adhere to the standards of the national event.

At any national event I have never been more than 10 feet away from my fencer. Period.

So abiding by those rules is not an issue.

Being a basketball court away is NOT the same setup as a national event.

Sorry doesn't matter how many times or ways you state it is...it simply is not.

Allowing fencers who are closer to the spectator area the ability to consistently walk over and discuss with thier coaches versus another fencer who must leave their assigned strip area and travel across said basketball court does in fact create bias and unfair advantage.

Once again does not matter how many times you try to claim it does not. The fact is that it does. Those fencers had the advantage of speaking with their coaches that others did not do to the physical setup.

Period

R