Stanford Fencing on the Chopping Block?

[jjefferies]

Just saw this and thought to pass it along. Checked that it's not a duplicate but I sometimes miss items. Note that some of the lines have been obviously cut and pasted from other posts which gives me something of a set in concrete feel:

From the BayArea Epee:
Fencers: After reading of the impeding plight of the fencing program at Stanford I wrote to the President, Provost, and Athletic Director, using my internal titles at the University for what they are worth (not much it seems!)...



Here is the response (my message at the bottom). It is predictable.... it also looks like a dismal prognosis. Whether they would close the fencing venue (why bother --- unless they have $$ to renovate it to something else?) and the club still seems uncertain to me......


Anyway, this is FYI, DG


****
Dr. Gaba--

Thank you for your recent email regarding the Stanford University
fencing program. I have been asked to respond to you on behalf of
President Hennessy and Provost Etchemendy.

I have served as a Director of Athletics for the past 30 years and in
that time I have never been involved in the discontinuation of a varsity
sport. I state that only to assure you that I have been through many
periods of difficult budgets and have always found other ways to save
money than dropping programs. There is no question that these are
unprecedented times but we still consider discontinuation to be the
course of last resort.

Last year our University spent $476,000 on the varsity fencing programs.
This figure includes scholarships, salaries, operating expenses, etc but
does not include a variety of other support services which are funded
centrally within our department. During the coming three fiscal years
we will be called upon to reduce our spending by almost $9 million and
we simply cannot continue to support the depth and breadth of programs
which we have heretofore funded. If the economy stays as bad as it has
been recently, we wil l undoubtedly be reducing several sports in the
years ahead. Having stated that, we continue to seek satisfactory
alternatives to the discontinuation of any sports and we will
steadfastly pursue possibilities to avoid reductions.

Thank you for taking the time to express your concerns and your
perspectives.

Sincerely,

Bob Bowlsby

-----Original Message-----
From: David Gaba [mailto:gaba@stanford.edu]
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2009 1:00 PM
To: Bowlsby, Robert A
Cc: Gaba, David M
Subject: Please do not eliminate the Fencing Programs at Stanford

Dear Director Bowlsby:

It has just come to my attention that the Athletic Department may be
planning to eliminate both the Fencing Teams and the Cardinal Fencing
Club as part of the required budget cuts necessitated by the recent
economic collapse. As an Associate Dean in the Sc h ool of Medicine, I
am fully cognizent of the economic difficulties faced by the
University at this time (I too have had to make serious budget cuts
and layoffs). Nonetheless, as I understand it, there is a way to
maintain the teams and the club that will cost the School very little
or even nothing. I myself am a fencer who has enjoyed fencing at
Stanford both occasionally in the club and in the many Bay Cup, and
USFA Regional tournaments that are held at Stanford. In what other
sports can a faculty member practice and compete together with
students, others in the Stanford community, and those from the area at
large, using the outstanding facility that is offered here?

Fencing is a wonderful sport that has been growing by leaps and
bounds. It attracts children, young adults, and even middle-age
people like me (I have been fenci n g only 3 years!). Stanford has been
highly competitive in fencing and the club and facility are a beacon
to practitioners of the sport from all of California. It would be an
enormous loss to each of the communities if the teams, club, and
facility were to be eliminated.

I urge you NOT to cut the varsity teams, nor to eliminate the Cardinal
Fencing Club or the fencing venue. Each of these is a positive
representative of Stanford that can be maintained with little cost to
the University.

Sincerely, David Gaba, M.D.
---------------------------------------------
David M. Gaba, M.D.
Associate Dean for Immersive & Simulation-based Learning
and Professor of Anesthesia
Stanford University

Staff Anesthesiologist
and Director, Patient Simulation Center of Innovation
VA Palo Alto Health Care System

[noodle]

i wonder what the odds are that we'd be able to see the budget sheet, possibly for the last few years, of the program in order to justify that number. it just sounds unreasonably large.

i wonder if they count time spent in training facilities as "lost revenue" on those facilities, therefore including them in the "cost" of the program.

[CadetVet]

Cross-posted under marketing...

To me, part of the problem is our inability to craft a decent message for parents and potential competitors. I think we're looking at this wrong - we're perceiving it as a top-down decision, when perhaps what is missing is the demand side of the equation.

OK, so I whine constantly about our sport's inability to promote itself out of a paper bag (Tim Moorehouse's efforts notwithstanding). We're not creating demand at the bottom - getting parents and kids involved as much as we should/could.

There are a lot of sports out there that have no real commercial potential (Lacrosse, for example) that continue to thrive. Why? I think that, for whatever reason, Lacrosse is promoted at the prep-school level (to middle and high school students - the same people that elite universities want to have in attendance)...

Does that mean that we need to become more elitist (rather than egalitarian)? Perhaps, but if we craft the message correctly (elite by accomplishment, not by birthright), we may be able to do it. After all, fencing is by its nature an individual sport - and the skills learned in becoming good at it translate well into accomplishment.

We've really got to get off our asses here and do something. Now is the time to invest in that future - we've had great successes that we're doing a wonderful job squandering. And yes, this needs to be oriented towards youth, junior and cadet fencing, not toward veterans.

[Philistine]

i wonder what the odds are that we'd be able to see the budget sheet, possibly for the last few years, of the program in order to justify that number. it just sounds unreasonably large.
{snip}

Ballparking, it doesn't seem that out of line.

According to this Story, Stanford gives 2 full fencing scholarships. (Not sure if this is just for men, or 2 each for men and women). So in any year, you've got 8 full scholarships out there (or 16).

At a startlingly low tuition of $12K/yr (compared to 30+) at some Ivies, that's probably $200K a year if it includes room and board (or just tuition if it's really 4, not 2).

There are 4 coaches (2 co-head coaches, 2 assistants) listed on site--so their salaries/benefits are probably in the neighborhood of $175K on the low side. Travel, per-diem, equipment, utilities, etc. could easily make up the rest.

--Philistine

[noodle]

Ballparking, it doesn't seem that out of line.

According to this Story, Stanford gives 2 full fencing scholarships. (Not sure if this is just for men, or 2 each for men and women). So in any year, you've got 8 full scholarships out there (or 16).

At a startlingly low tuition of $12K/yr (compared to 30+) at some Ivies, that's probably $200K a year if it includes room and board (or just tuition if it's really 4, not 2).

There are 4 coaches (2 co-head coaches, 2 assistants) listed on site--so their salaries/benefits are probably in the neighborhood of $175K on the low side. Travel, per-diem, equipment, utilities, etc. could easily make up the rest.

--Philistine

true enough, i'd not really thought about the scholarship aspect. it still seems strange to want to cut the sport instead of trying to work with the sport to try and plug holes and become affordable.

[oiuyt]

Stanford gives 2 full fencing scholarships. (Not sure if this is just for men, or 2 each for men and women). So in any year, you've got 8 full scholarships out there (or 16).

2 full scholarships certainly means 2 total, not 2 per year. It's not clear whether that's 2 per gender, for men, or overall.

Full scholarships include tuition, room, board, books, and fees. According to the offer letter to Ms. Bassa mentioned previously on this thread that totals ~$48k at Stanford.

I have no information about the terms upon which Stanford's coaches are employed. It is not uncommon for assistant (fencing) coaches to be less than full-time.* Or volunteer. Many NCAA head coaches in our sport are part time.

Guessing budget numbers without significantly better information is unlikely to be particularly accurate.

-B

* For reference, I'm full-time.

[oiuyt]

Article from Stanford Report:

http://news.stanford.edu/news/2009/m...on-030409.html

Includes different numbers than mentioned in the quoted emails ($5.4 million over 3 years, rather than $9 million being the notable one). Either different numbers are floating around or the numbers have changed significantly in the past 2 months.

-B

[H Runyan]

Fencing community,

I would encourage you all to support Stanford's fencing program.

Our U.C. San Diego NCAA fencing program was under review for elimination five years ago and through a combination of educating the department on the sport and its growth and impact on the community, some donations, and a massive letter writing campaign, we were able to keep the program. It is now a very solid part of the UC San Diego athletic program.

If the Stanford program does fold, UCSD still intends to continue support of varsity fencing. However, the loss of Stanford fencing would be significant to the NCAA.

The fencing community needs to overwhelm the Stanford Athletic Director and President with letters. You can send emails, but better yet, spend 42 cents and send a written letter as this tends to have a better chance of being read.

Mailing Address:

Bob Bowlsby
Director of Athletics
Department of Athletics
Stanford University
Arrillaga Family Sports Center
641 East Campus Drive
Stanford, CA 94305-6150

John L. Hennessy
Office of the President
Building 10
Stanford University
Stanford, CA 94305-2061

When you write, please don’t tell them they need more scholarships. I would imagine this is where the majority of their program cost is from. Unless you wish to send a donation, Coach Lisa Milgram and the AD can come up with ways to trim costs.

Tell them fencing is a wonderful and unique sport. Tell them about fencing’s growth and success (Olympians like Felicia and Iris Zimmerman have come from Stanford). Tell them it is a great fit for an elite academic university.

Heidi Runyan
Head Coach
UCSD Fencing

[keith]

I think the thought that the school might see a 'sustained and strong interest in SOMETHING' (and something that the kid has been at least moderately successful at) might also be a factor. It's not just the money.

Which means that the impact of the loss of an NCAA program is somewhat less than that which wiped out the dinosaurs?

[bigdawg2121]

There are 4 coaches (2 co-head coaches, 2 assistants) listed on site--so their salaries/benefits are probably in the neighborhood of $175K on the low side. Travel, per-diem, equipment, utilities, etc. could easily make up the rest.

--Philistine

Your estimates for coach salaries are almost certainly far too high to be realistic. I would be surprised if they were actually hitting $100K. Almost certainly not significantly more than $100,000.

[Wafath]

Your estimates for coach salaries are almost certainly far too high to be realistic. I would be surprised if they were actually hitting $100K. Almost certainly not significantly more than $100,000.

Maybe in terms of salary, yes, but what the Athletic department must pay out, my guess is $200K for 2 full time, 2 part time. It varies heavily across the field, but for crude calculations, a factor of two is good for the difference between what the employee sees vs what the employer pays. (In addition to obvious benefits like health insurance and retirement, there are also things like office space, equipment, HR, electricity, etc, etc.)

W

[Philistine]

Your estimates for coach salaries are almost certainly far too high to be realistic. I would be surprised if they were actually hitting $100K. Almost certainly not significantly more than $100,000.

For all four of them combined? Including benefits?

(I have no understanding whatsoever of what their salaries/benefits are, whether they're full/part time, etc. but $100K seems quite low. Health insurance alone probably runs around $40K--assuming they get it, of course).

--Philistine

[bigdawg2121]

I would assume that the 2 head coaches get benefits and that the 2 assistants likely get access to reduced cost healthcare as part of a university plan (at best...they quite possibly get no benefits). Also salaries, even for head coaches tend to be on the rather low side. I seem to recall hearing that most head fencing coaches make <35K/yr...

[edew]

Maybe in terms of salary, yes, but what the Athletic department must pay out, my guess is $200K for 2 full time, 2 part time. It varies heavily across the field, but for crude calculations, a factor of two is good for the difference between what the employee sees vs what the employer pays. (In addition to obvious benefits like health insurance and retirement, there are also things like office space, equipment, HR, electricity, etc, etc.)

W

You gotta realize that the four have to live in Silicon Valley. You can't survive on $50K/yr for a family. I don't know the familial situations of the two assistant coaches, but George and Lisa both have families. Yes, they make additional money from the club (at least George and the assistant coaches), but how much?

[NGV]

There are a lot of sports out there that have no real commercial potential (Lacrosse, for example) that continue to thrive. Why? I think that, for whatever reason, Lacrosse is promoted at the prep-school level (to middle and high school students - the same people that elite universities want to have in attendance)...

Let's take a guess at the relative sizes of the following numbers:

- The number of high school lacrosse players nationwide vs. the number of high school fencers.
- The number of Americans who know a lacrosse player vs. the number who know a fencer.
- The number of Americans who have seen a lacrosse match vs. the number who have seen a fencing tournament.
- The number of Americans who know what lacrosse is vs. the number who know what fencing is.

I dunno what the numbers are, but I can guarantee that in each case the number for lacrosse will be vastly higher. The NCAA lacrosse championship game draws about 50,000 fans (and is broadcast live on ESPN). The Division II / Division III championships drew half that last year.

You can't even begin to compare the two, and the reason for that has nothing to with lacrosse having a better "message." It's that lacrosse has a significant presence in American culture, and fencing has a virtually nonexistent presence in American culture.

Aside from history and the fact that it's an Olympic sport, NCAA fencing doesn't seem to have much reason to exist in the first place.

[oiuyt]

The Office of Postsecondary Education, a division of the US Department of Education, reports on all kinds of budgetary information for colleges.

Institution data for Stanford

Stanford Fencing is listed as having a total operating expense of $51,518 (both genders combined). That does not include scholarships or salaries. I'm not sure what else isn't included. Or even how reliable all of the listed information might be.

A couple of the supplimental notes relate to coaches (and their salaries):

(1)It is University policy to employ coaches as full-time employees. In addition to their coaching duties, many are expected to teach PE classes. Therefore, coaches that teach these classes have been recoreded as "Part Time". In FY08, we moved towards more assistant and less head coaches teaching PE classes. This impacted the per coach and per FTE salary data. (2) "Coach Salaries" include base salary, benefits, housing allowance, car allowance, all bonuses and special compensation.

-B

[Philistine]

Stanford Fencing is listed as having a total operating expense of $51,518 (both genders combined).

That's an interesting reference. Also, at that metric, fencing comes in with both the smallest total operating expense and the smallest operating expense per athlete. (With the operating cost for one football player being equal to the entire men's fencing program....)

--Philistine

[edew]

Let's take a guess at the relative sizes of the following numbers:

- The number of high school lacrosse players nationwide vs. the number of high school fencers.

High school senior men in lacrosse, 2006 (or so): 35,266, senior women in lacrosse same year: 26,677. senior men in fencing: 777, senior women in fencing: 641.

- The number of Americans who know a lacrosse player vs. the number who know a fencer.

With six degrees to connect, it really depends on what "know" means. I know of only one person who plays lacrosse and that's a fencer in my club.

- The number of Americans who have seen a lacrosse match vs. the number who have seen a fencing tournament.

I've not seen any lacrosse matches ever. Never seen it live and only saw snippets on tv. Of course, I'm not the typical 'merkin.

- The number of Americans who know what lacrosse is vs. the number who know what fencing is.

Most people know what fencing is, although probably mistakenly to some degree. I don't think the general American will know how lacrosse is scored any more than they know how fencing is scored

I dunno what the numbers are, but I can guarantee that in each case the number for lacrosse will be vastly higher. The NCAA lacrosse championship game draws about 50,000 fans (and is broadcast live on ESPN). The Division II / Division III championships drew half that last year.

You can't even begin to compare the two, and the reason for that has nothing to with lacrosse having a better "message." It's that lacrosse has a significant presence in American culture, and fencing has a virtually nonexistent presence in American culture.

So far. but with the diligence and leadership of people like Morehouse and others, we can only go up.

Aside from history and the fact that it's an Olympic sport, NCAA fencing doesn't seem to have much reason to exist in the first place.

I think the competitiveness of fencing makes for a bigger and better rivalry among schools than other sports, even football. It's pretty clear. Although, I do hope that we don't have to go back to the schlager days of the german gymnasium cadets just to get the school spirit up.

[DieterS]

Of course the transparent fencing mask and new timings will change these numbers dramatically!

(I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist.)

[prototoast]

I think the competitiveness of fencing makes for a bigger and better rivalry among schools than other sports, even football. It's pretty clear. Although, I do hope that we don't have to go back to the schlager days of the german gymnasium cadets just to get the school spirit up.

Could you please elaborate this point. I don't follow.