Breaking bad Martial Arts Habits

[erik_blank]

I have a fencer that has close to 25 years experience in martial arts who is having problems breaking a lot of 'natural' reactions when attacked. Specifically he has the habit of bringing his front foot up in what appears to be the preperation of a front kick... It looks odd to the opponent, covers target area in the most agregious position, and makes me REALLY nervous for the other opponent.
The fencer also seems to be unable to relax when attempting a beat attack or simple parry, resulting in over agressive actions that often put the opponents point into the floor.
Does anyone have any suggestions on how to help this fencer adapt new habits and relax on the strip?

[noodle]

pick a problem action and work specifically on it, concentrating on it in a bout or in drills. muscle memory is overcome by concentration and can be overwritten by new muscle memory. i still have my martial arts reactions, which, for the most part, only comes out now when i don't have a weapon in hand.

just specifically pick actions and tailor drills to the specific problems that the guy has, and make sure he's doing the right stuff. it'll pass, with time and practice.

[MdA]

......Does anyone have any suggestions on how to help this fencer adapt new habits and relax on the strip?

Stop giving him lessons. Give him an epee and let him just go at it with the most experienced fencers in your club.

[erik_blank]

Stop giving him lessons. Give him an epee and let him just go at with the most experienced fencers in your club.

Thanks, but don't you think that even Epee takes SOME skill?

[noodle]

Thanks, but don't you think that even Epee takes SOME skill?

if he has performance anxiety, make him fence more, while training in better reactions. he's defaulting to the crazy stuff because he doesn't have better ones trained in yet. replace what he's doing with SOMEthing else and he'll level out.

[RITFencing]

All of these signs point to a lot of tension and apprehension, and it sounds like there's a very conscious unwillingness to let go of trained habits.

What is making him so nervous? Also, does he talk about his martial arts training a lot? If so, some gentle reminders that this is NOT karate or whatever might be helpful.

[Zhais]

One thing that helped me differentiate my reactions between my martial arts class, kendo, and fencing was to have all the various weapons, and switch drills depending on what was in my hand.

Basically, just forced my body to instinctively react differently depending on what is in my hands. Just like there is a foil stance, saber stance, and epee stance, have to engrain the different actions between fencing styles and other martial arts.

[fatfencer]

I have a fencer that has close to 25 years experience in martial arts who is having problems breaking a lot of 'natural' reactions when attacked. Specifically he has the habit of bringing his front foot up in what appears to be the preperation of a front kick... It looks odd to the opponent, covers target area in the most agregious position, and makes me REALLY nervous for the other opponent.
The fencer also seems to be unable to relax when attempting a beat attack or simple parry, resulting in over agressive actions that often put the opponents point into the floor.
Does anyone have any suggestions on how to help this fencer adapt new habits and relax on the strip?

And repeat after Fatfencer.

Fencing is NOT a martial art. Fencing is a sport which has its own rules and good habits one must adopt.

Fenicn and martial arts have no meaningful similarity that will help you as a fencer on the sstrip.

FF

[Allen Evans]

I think you're right to be a little concerned about this fencer. I had gone through a certain amount of martial arts training when I started fencing (though certainly not 25 years worth) and -- quite honestly -- found it pretty easy to seperate fencing from the other things I did. Over the years that I've been fencing, I've met a lot of "martial artists" who had "combat reflexes" they couldn't control. I thought that most of them were simply fencing as a lark and few of them stuck with the sport.

I would think that after 25 years of training, one of the things this student would have learned how to do is control his conscience and even unconsience reactions. It makes me wonder just how "good" of a martial artist this person is/was....if perhaps he's not just "posing" these reactions to cover up some inadequacies about learning a new skill (you often find with some martial artists that they feel that skill in one discipline should transfer to skill in ALL disciplines, and are often very embarressed when that doesn't immediately happen).

If this fencer is really sincere about learning the sport, and his reactions aren't just the result of an ego, you may have to put him through a lot of controlled drilling situations, done at a slow speed, to give him new reflexes. This may take a considerable amount of time. If he's the real deal--an experianced martial practitioner--he'll understand. If he's just a poser, he'll protest, and I would use that as a sign to keep him on a very short leash.

AE

[MdA]

Thanks, but don't you think that even Epee takes SOME skill?

Epee takes a lot of skill. But, it is the best weapon for him to get thrashed...and recognize the skill of the better fencers. Then you can follow the course that Allen suggests.

[RITFencing]

I would think that after 25 years of training, one of the things this student would have learned how to do is control his conscience and even unconsience reactions. It makes me wonder just how "good" of a martial artist this person is/was....if perhaps he's not just "posing" these reactions to cover up some inadequacies about learning a new skill (you often find with some martial artists that they feel that skill in one discipline should transfer to skill in ALL disciplines, and are often very embarressed when that doesn't immediately happen).

You said it, not me.

In all seriousness, Allen is absolutely spot on. I should have seen it as well, but there's probably a big ego issue too, especially with that much training.

[Allen Evans]

You said it, not me.

Did I say something out of turn?

[noodle]

Did I say something out of turn?

no, i think you just brought something up that could be considered a touchy subject. i know i purposefully avoided it, at least

[Allen Evans]

Yes, but I did handle it in a calm, tactful way.

This is a safe sport. However, I think we're all aware that there is a certain fringe element attracted to it, simply because of the combat overtones fencing exhibits, and peoples misconceptions of what fencing is about. I think anyone coaching needs to be watchful of people who don't approach fencing as a sport, with rules and conventions to be obeyed.

Having seen a situation much like this before, I thought a note of caution was warrented.

AE

[erik_blank]

I think you're right to be a little concerned about this fencer. I had gone through a certain amount of martial arts training when I started fencing (though certainly not 25 years worth) and -- quite honestly -- found it pretty easy to seperate fencing from the other things I did. Over the years that I've been fencing, I've met a lot of "martial artists" who had "combat reflexes" they couldn't control. I thought that most of them were simply fencing as a lark and few of them stuck with the sport.

I would think that after 25 years of training, one of the things this student would have learned how to do is control his conscience and even unconsience reactions. It makes me wonder just how "good" of a martial artist this person is/was....if perhaps he's not just "posing" these reactions to cover up some inadequacies about learning a new skill (you often find with some martial artists that they feel that skill in one discipline should transfer to skill in ALL disciplines, and are often very embarressed when that doesn't immediately happen).

If this fencer is really sincere about learning the sport, and his reactions aren't just the result of an ego, you may have to put him through a lot of controlled drilling situations, done at a slow speed, to give him new reflexes. This may take a considerable amount of time. If he's the real deal--an experianced martial practitioner--he'll understand. If he's just a poser, he'll protest, and I would use that as a sign to keep him on a very short leash.

AE

Allen:

thank you for your response.
I do not believe that he is 'posing' but has actual issues dissasociating his prior training from what he is trying to do now. As to his ability in martial arts, I have no opinion, nor does he make any real reference to this other than the few times I have asked about his reactions and he mentioned the above past history. He is also an adult with a profesional career, so I do not see him as a 'classic braggart' that I have had experience in the past.

One of the biggest issues that I have here is that he is not actually part of a club, but instead a student in a non-credit continuing education class and as such really only has the opportunity to fence once a week during my 2 hour class. Not much time to really work on his needs since I need to attend to the rest of the class also. He does indeed seem to be willing to do the work, so I will try to get him to do some more slow actions with others.

[noodle]

Allen:

thank you for your response.
I do not believe that he is 'posing' but has actual issues dissasociating his prior training from what he is trying to do now. As to his ability in martial arts, I have no opinion, nor does he make any real reference to this other than the few times I have asked about his reactions and he mentioned the above past history. He is also an adult with a profesional career, so I do not see him as a 'classic braggart' that I have had experience in the past.

One of the biggest issues that I have here is that he is not actually part of a club, but instead a student in a non-credit continuing education class and as such really only has the opportunity to fence once a week during my 2 hour class. Not much time to really work on his needs since I need to attend to the rest of the class also. He does indeed seem to be willing to do the work, so I will try to get him to do some more slow actions with others.

just something you're going to have to work out with him. the only way i got over my bad legacy reactions were to put the right ones in there in the right contexts. besides, most of my martial arts training helped a lot more than it hurt.

i imagine he might also have issues with martial arts -- ingrained bad, habitual actions that don't really help him there, either, and now they're hopping over to fencing because they're what he's used to doing.

[AaronK]

I have had many students with a range of martial arts experience coming into my fencing class- I agree with Allen's assessment of the situation.
The most common skill that I have to be trained out of someone who moves form martial-arts to fencing usually involve "blocking" their movements- moving forcefully from position to position and locking into that final position.
When I have come across someone with a similar quirk as you have- someone who kept doing "karate" moves when fencing (usually changing their stance as if to kick but not as extreme as bringing their leg up)- it was all about their ego. I make that assessment based on their defense: "I couldn't help it it was a reflex". Did they need to constantly remind me and all of their opponents that they took martial-arts?

I don't think you will have any success retraining this person by drills, repetition, or fencing. If the problem was a simple motor-learning problem it would be an easier fix.
Making the assumption that they wanted to demonstrate competence in fencing (not look like a newbie forever), this is the approach that has worked for me in the past. I would try to appeal to their ego on several levels, and discuss with them that:
1. It's against the rules. This is pretty straightforward.
2. It's not an effective strategy because standing on one leg limits movement, ensuring that you can't escape from getting hit (off-target or not). Which is also a dangerous strategy in a "real" swordfight. If you can justify why it's tactically stupid in fencing as well as in a "hypothetical" situation that they believe they have some expertise in, logic should win the argument here.
3. A martial-artist should be in complete control of their self, the master of their own actions. If unable to control their impulses they would hurt or injure someone all the time. I would tell the person point blank that this action is either "on purpose" OR in the case of a lack of ability to control it...dangerous. Faced with those choices, I would ask them how they are going to control that "reflex".

If it's an uncontrolled reflex, why is is that they seem to have control over the "kicking" part of the movement, but never the part that actually gets into the stance...wouldn't they recognize the impulse to get into a kicking stance earlier and stop it then? The reflex argument means that this person is inevitably going to hurt someone. If they want to go the reflex route I would suggest giving a negative consequence for the impulse (and tell them about it ahead of time)- pull them from fencing for X time if it happens, twice that time if it happens again.
Also I would assume that by now it's well known that this kick reflex is an undesired skill. I would think that someone would get frustrated with themselves if it kept happening and they where trying to fix it. How many students do you have that get frustrated when they repeat an error that they are trying to fix in a lesson? So it seems really silly that a skill that has no basis in fencing keeps happening against the offender's will.

The bottom line for me is that I think you have to get the individual to WANT to change their behavior in order for you to make progress in this case.

[Inquartata]

...he has the habit of bringing his front foot up in what appears to be the preperation of a front kick...

Hobbles.

Seriously.

[Delta]

I disagree that the fencer is conciously unwilling to let go of his previous MA training. I'm was similarly crossing over a while back, and a lot of what frustrated my team mates and coaches was just the slow process of retraining my body. Twenty-five years leaves a lot of specialization for muscle memory and trained impulses. It's certainly difficult to break it down, but like a previous poster said, work on things one at a time. Your student will probably have to be much more deliberate than say, a much younger fencer who hasn't really been exposed or spend much time specializing in anything else. Part of breaking his habits down would be retraining his muscles. It may be boring, but a lot of MA styles run contrary to the kinesthetic training of fencing/ROW rules. I suggest fixing those first.

Hope this helped.

[Downtown]

I studied martial arts for 18 years. I fence epee.

The only problems I ever had adapting were:

1. In the very beginning, sometimes I would catch a point with my off weapon hand if it was heading for my mask. That only happened 2 or 3 times.

2. My weapon arm moved from a very relaxed state to state of tension as the point would hit my opponent. I would also tend to pronate as I did this. I made the action like a reverse punch. It was fast, but of course very wrong.

I have more or less fixed this problem through the autonomic memory of drills in private lessons. It was just another of a dozen or so things I was doing wrong. It went away.

Perhaps he is just trying to use what he has. Just tell him that it does not work and you will have to relearn skills.

Or...if he studied so long, it is a difficult thing to let go of being the master and going back to being the pupil. Talk to him about it.

Or it could be that he just wants to appear "all bad" and such. Talk to him about that. If that is the case....cut him loose before he hurts someone.