Jeff Wolfe Long Island Challenge N.O.C. at Mission

[oso97]

As long as a significant percentage of potential fencers for an event are in grades 10 (for events in spring) thru 12 (for events in fall), scheduling an event that conflicts with an SAT test date will reduce the number of participants.

So will scheduling an event for Labor Day weekend (a traditional family vacation time).

So will scheduling an event for Memorial Day weekend (another traditional family vacation time).

So will scheduling an event on top of a popular local non-fencing event.

So will scheduling an event the weekend before or after an NAC nearby.

So will scheduling an event too close to Summer Nationals.

So will scheduling an event on top of college finals weekend (like many of the Sectional Championships do).

So will scheduling an RYC for Halloween weekend (got personally bit by THAT one last fall).

Point I'm trying to make, and I don't know if you're seeing it, is that EVERY weekend is a conflict of some sort for some group of people. Its a matter of balancing it out, which includes, for the host, an analysis of opportunity costs associated with scheduling it that weekend. I'm willing to gander that the folks at Mission Fencing decided that their target customer base was not mainly composed of 11th graders who would be taking the SAT (in fact, I've got pretty good information that this was exactly their thinking...).

On the other hand, scheduling an event where 11th graders make up a SIZABLE chunk of the target population, like say a Junior NAC - that is definitely something to be avoided. But, like it or not, there are going to be other events on SAT weekends.

About the only sacrosanct weekend any more is Christmas...

[fdad]

So will scheduling an event for Labor Day weekend (a traditional family vacation time).

So will scheduling an event for Memorial Day weekend (another traditional family vacation time).

So will scheduling an event on top of a popular local non-fencing event.

So will scheduling an event the weekend before or after an NAC nearby.

So will scheduling an event too close to Summer Nationals.

So will scheduling an event on top of college finals weekend (like many of the Sectional Championships do).

So will scheduling an RYC for Halloween weekend (got personally bit by THAT one last fall).

Point I'm trying to make, and I don't know if you're seeing it, is that EVERY weekend is a conflict of some sort for some group of people. Its a matter of balancing it out, which includes, for the host, an analysis of opportunity costs associated with scheduling it that weekend. I'm willing to gander that the folks at Mission Fencing decided that their target customer base was not mainly composed of 11th graders who would be taking the SAT (in fact, I've got pretty good information that this was exactly their thinking...).

On the other hand, scheduling an event where 11th graders make up a SIZABLE chunk of the target population, like say a Junior NAC - that is definitely something to be avoided. But, like it or not, there are going to be other events on SAT weekends.

About the only sacrosanct weekend any more is Christmas...

Take a look at the "typical" foil event in NY/NJ area. A significant number of those fencers are in the 10-12 grade range (I'd guess over 50%). I have no problem with events being scheduled that conflict evenly for the entire population - and have no problem with local events conflicting with other things - like you said there will always be a conflict for someone. But USFA seems to have it in for HS juniors this year. They could have sanctioned a NOC on another weekend, could have put out the schedule early enough for alternative SAT plans to be made, and could have avoided conflicts with EVERY SAT date in the fall.

[epeemike81]

I'm willing to gander that the folks at Mission Fencing decided that their target customer base was not mainly composed of 11th graders who would be taking the SAT (in fact, I've got pretty good information that this was exactly their thinking...).

That word... I do not think it means what you think it means.

Main Entry:
1gan·der
Pronunciation:
\ˈgan-dər\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English, from Old English gandra; akin to Old English gōs goose
Date:
before 12th century
1 : an adult male goose
2 : simpleton
3 : look, glance

-m

[epeemike81]

Take a look at the "typical" foil event in NY/NJ area. A significant number of those fencers are in the 10-12 grade range (I'd guess over 50%). I have no problem with events being scheduled that conflict evenly for the entire population - and have no problem with local events conflicting with other things - like you said there will always be a conflict for someone. But USFA seems to have it in for HS juniors this year. They could have sanctioned a NOC on another weekend, could have put out the schedule early enough for alternative SAT plans to be made, and could have avoided conflicts with EVERY SAT date in the fall.

not sure if you realize, but the conflicts in the fall were caused when the SAT's changed their traditional weekend. the NACs are still on the weekend's they're on every year. expecting the USFA to anticipate a change to a well established set of testing weekends is a little extreme.

-m

[teacup]

not sure if you realize, but the conflicts in the fall were caused when the SAT's changed their traditional weekend. the NACs are still on the weekend's they're on every year. expecting the USFA to anticipate a change to a well established set of testing weekends is a little extreme.

-m

The College Board didn't change their dates. The November NAC has often been held around the November 11 Veteran's Day holiday, for some reason for the next two seasons they were scheduled earlier around Nov. 7th.

Using this formula, SAT test dates can be anticipated well into the future. So it isn't "extreme" to hope that the USFA would try to schedule a junior NAC around an SAT date that is the same for EVERY high school fencer in the country.

From the College Board:
According to our formula, test dates fall on the first Saturday in November, December, May and June; the second Saturday in October and March; and the fourth Saturday in January.

There is a thread regarding SAT and NAC conflicts.
2009-10 SAT testing and 2009-10 USFA Schedule

[seak]

Ok really this whole SAT thing is getting a little silly. First most 10th graders aren't taking a spring SAT, second even fewer 12 graders are taking a spring SAT. So please stop with this affects 10-12 graders. It affects 11th graders who btw could then choose to take the June SAT if they really wanted to go to the NOC.

Scheduling a mostly local competition around a testing date that affects one grade is just getting a little bit silly. Would it be better if everyone could do absolutely everything they wanted on whatever weekend they wanted? Yes, but that's not how the world works, so people have to make choices. Sometimes that means choosing to miss a fencing competition.

And yes it stinks that every NAC in the fall is on an SAT date, but the number of kids who can/should be fencing all 3 events is relatively small, and again it mostly only affects one grade, in this case 12th graders, as Juniors usually wait till spring to test anyways.

[teacup]

Of course, it isn't reasonable to schedule everything around an SAT test date. In fact scheduling an RYC on an SAT date is a good idea considering that the young fencers won't be affected and if the event is at a club, the older fencers might not be there, probably cancelling classes or lessons anyway. On the other hand, hosting a youth event on Halloween or the day after would affect turnout.

(Even Christmas or Easter wouldn't be that horrible if 99% of the expected fencers weren't Christian or don't observe those holidays. And by the way, Christmas isn't always on a weekend. )

There are no perfect dates and scheduling every event around a SAT date isn't what is being discussed here. I believe that fdad was suggesting a reason as to why turnout could have been lower than expected, at the same time wishing that there hadn't been a conflict so some could attend. It appears the organizers, and the USFA, since this was an NOC, weighed the impact of the conflict and decided to go ahead anyway. Whether that was a good decision, should be determined for future events.

My post about SAT dates was in answer to the statement that it was the college board who changed their dates and that the USFA couldn't predict what dates would be chosen as test dates in the future. The college board didn't change their dates and dates can be predicted into the future.

Due to the specific events, the October and December conflicts are bad but not as bad as the November Junior NAC conflict. The USFA made a major oversight. Hopefully now that the situation has been recognized, if at all possible, these conflicts will not occur in the future.

If the goal is to have strong participation, individual, division and section organizers, need to be aware of what conflicts will affect the majority of their participants and schedule accordingly. Ultimately, turnout, for better or worse, will reflect whatever decisions are made.

Sometimes organizers are out of the loop, and don't realize what may have an impact on turnout. Parents of young children are aware of Halloween pitfalls while older organizers may have forgotten about this potential turnout killer. Mentioning possible conflicts or reasons why attendance might be affected is a valuable tool in helping all of us schedule events for the maximum benefit of the expected attendees.

[fdad]

Ok really this whole SAT thing is getting a little silly. First most 10th graders aren't taking a spring SAT, second even fewer 12 graders are taking a spring SAT. So please stop with this affects 10-12 graders. It affects 11th graders who btw could then choose to take the June SAT if they really wanted to go to the NOC.

When I was young enough to take the SAT, getitng into a reasonably good school was a lot less competitive than it is now. I can't remember anyone that took the test more than once, and have no idea whether "subject" tests even existed then.

Now, it is common for students to take the general SAT more than once, and to also take multiple subject tests (some more than once). When scheduling a subject test, its is common sense to take that test in the spring of the year you are taking the corresponding course. Many 9th, 10th, and 11th graders are in this situation - needing both the May and June test dates for subject tests. Though you could take up to two subject test on the same date, it would be unwise since if you did well on one test and not the other you would be force to either report both or neither score.

My statement about the impact on 10-12th graders was relative to the Fall NAC situation. I agree that 12th graders are mostly already done with SAT testing.

Scheduling a mostly local competition around a testing date that affects one grade is just getting a little bit silly. Would it be better if everyone could do absolutely everything they wanted on whatever weekend they wanted? Yes, but that's not how the world works, so people have to make choices. Sometimes that means choosing to miss a fencing competition.

I was not initially complaining about the scheduling of the NOC - just explaining why I thought turnout was lower than what should be expected for a moderately high profile event in that area. I do think USFA could have done a better job of announcing the scheduling the event early enough so that those who could make other plans had time to do so.

And yes it stinks that every NAC in the fall is on an SAT date, but the number of kids who can/should be fencing all 3 events is relatively small, and again it mostly only affects one grade, in this case 12th graders, as Juniors usually wait till spring to test anyways.

Again, you don't need to be trying to fence in all 3 events to be impacted. Your assumption that all a kid needs is one test date is false.

[dberke]

As a division chair responsbile for putting togehter our annual schedule (something I'm doing now for the 09-10 season), I'd like to invite all of the people who are complaining about conflicts to go through the exercise at least once. I can tell you from many years of experience that it's not as simple as you think.

When putting together the annual schedule for the Western WA division, I have to take all of the following into consideration (in no particular order):
- NAC, JOs, and Summer Nationals dates
- SYC dates
- RYC dates
- Sectionals weekend
- Major holidays (Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter, Memorial Day)
- "Minor holidays" (Mother's Day, Father's Day, Superbowl Sunday)
- Deadlines for qualifier forms
- Significant annual events hosted by clubs in the division
- Major events in neighboring divisions (primarily Oregon)
- Major events along the west coast (Sierra Nevada Open, Duel in the Desert, Linkmeyer, etc.)
- SAT test dates
- Spring break for various school districts
- Final exam weeks

Edit: Teacup's comment below reminds me that we're lucky in one respect - we have two local clubs with large, permanent facilitites for our events. Divisions that don't have that luxury also need to deal with the availability dates of any gym/convention space that they need to rent to hold their events.

Each year, the division directly hosts only 6 events (two qualifier events, two major regional events, and two division championship events). Yet it always is a challenge to find the right weekend to place those each year. With the huge list of things to take into consideration, it is inevitible that someone will get the short end of the stick.

My attitude is that we do our best to avoid conflicts. But we also publish our annual schedule by August, so there ARE NO SURPRISES. If people fail to look at the schedule, and then they go ahead and schedule a family vacation for the weekend of JO qualifiers, don't complain to me that you'll be out of town. Too many people feel it is the responsiblity of the tournament organizers to cater to their schedule. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way.

Right now I'm wrestling with when to schedule our Sectional qualifier for next season. We could either do it the week immediately after the April NAC (which will probably be on the east coast), the first weekend of May (which conflicts with an SAT test), or the second weekend of May (which conflicts with Mother's Day.) Any one of those choices will piss off some group of people.

I know it's hard to look beyond one's immediate interests, but sometimes you need to look at the big picture to understand why certain dates are chosen.

Dan

[teacup]

As a former chair of a large division, where it takes five or more weekends to host the qualifiers for JO's and Summer Nationals alone and with no permanent venue or clubs large enough to host them, I totally agree that scheduling to please everyone is a nightmare.

At least next season, organizers don't have to worry about conflicts with three of the SAT testing dates. That will actually open a few weekends.

My point is if organizers share information then maybe conflicts, that people hadn't anticipated as being problematic for a specific group, can be avoided. Different groups are affected by different events. Even Oso97 mentioned that he didn't realize the impact that Halloween would have on a youth event. (A Veteran event probably would have been fine.)

(I remember once a section officer told me she liked that a fencer's father was a rabbi because he could warn of potential religious date conflicts.)

Neither should assumptions be made about what won't work. Once we ran a tournament over Thanksgiving. Although there wasn't a big turnout we ran multiple pools and people were very happy with the results.

Another combination that doesn't work is Junior and Cadet events. Junior and Y14 are much better. No one wants to run an event, with minimal attendance. It's like throwing a party when nobody comes.

After all, it is a lot harder to have to reschedule an event than avoid conflicting with something in the first place. I am sure that the USFA wishes that those three NAC's, for not only 09-10 but 10-11 too, weren't scheduled against the SAT test dates.

[seak]

To sum kids need more then one test date.

I know this, I'm currently a graduate student at a fairly competitive school and my youngest brother is currently a high school senior, that being said the average even among people who take it more then once is only 2-3 times. So if you're a fencer and you know in advance that you want to fence a lot of weekends you start prob winter of your junior year, at that point you have three available dates. January, March/April and June. IF you are still unhappy there are three dates in the fall as well. Most people don't take the SAT as a sophomore. For subject tests most people take it in June and the fall, and you can take more then one at a time if you don't want to that is a choice.

This is sort of my point, yeah it stinks that you can't do both and that all the NAC dates in the fall the same as SAT dates, but it really only affects 12 graders, and they might just have to choose what's more important fencing the NAC or only taking on SAT subject test at a time, or taking the SAT an extra time. But it's not true that there's only one SAT date and one NAC and kids have to choose between the one SAT date and the one NAC or NOC.

Honestly, I'm sympathetic it would be better if the dates didn't conflict and I didn't mean to go on a rant, I'm just getting a little tired of the number of people on here complaining that there high school kid won't get to fence all 6 NAC's they're eligible for next year, because they might have to make a choice about the SAT. I honestly think it's far worse that we make college students every year have to take off right before or during finals if they want to fence 2/3 Div1 events in a year since a) college is way more important then hs, and b) these events actually impact senior world team selection.

[keith]

When I was young enough to take the SAT, getitng into a reasonably good school was a lot less competitive than it is now.

Well there are all those crappy state schools.

But, oh the shame of having to confess where your child goes .

[bigdawg2121]

Seriously, the tests aren't that bad. They're also not everything that determines admission. You might need more than one date (to take the subject tests in addition to the main SAT) but really without writing as a major necessity anymore you could mostly get away with one date. Just don't screw it up.

Granted, not screwing it up can be easier said than done and may depend on being able to pay someone like me to teach how to do it. I'd place the blame for that squarely on the shoulders of the test prep people though.