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Tim P. Miceli · 10-08-2002, 10:04 AM

Since lately there was concern about making fencing more of a spectacle and slowing it down a bit do you think that it is possible that they would move to this?

Any ideas on how they could do this, short of taping the back and sides of the saber?

Is there anything like this in the works?

epeemike81 · 10-08-2002, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim P. Miceli
Since lately there was concern about making fencing more of a spectacle and slowing it down a bit do you think that it is possible that they would move to this?

Any ideas on how they could do this, short of taping the back and sides of the saber?

Is there anything like this in the works?

well, dry fencing works.

in all seriousness, though, I don't think this would make the sport more fun to watch, as I find electric sabre a whole lot more fun to watch than dry sabre, which DID restrict to edge and point.

I think a change like this would have a tendency to take sabre back to the more heavy handed actions of yesteryear, and I think you would agree that is NOT what we want.

-m

sabreur · 10-08-2002, 12:23 PM

Epeemike,

The actions of yesteryear, at least when I was fencing, were lighter, because you had fewer people trying to smash through a parry and get a malparre--generally if you heard steel before jacket, you gave a parry. Today, if the light goes on, unless you have a pretty good director, it's a point.

By the way, the back top third of a sabre was also considered a valid edge--one of my still favorite reactions against a point in line is a strong seconde, followed by a back edge to the outside cheek.

And finally--we used to hit with the flat when we fenced dry as well--particularly with a chest or belly cut.

Cheers, MR

HilandDoug · 10-08-2002, 01:40 PM

Mark, do you remember when you'd lay the blade flat on the arm, and the touch judge would give a "no, flat," to your action? Nowadays, that's a good touch! I remember an old referee telling me the only acceptable flat hits were chest and belly, and that everything else would be called flat. This was back in the dry sabre days. Likewise, if you landed the back edge on your opponent, it was up to the touch judges to see whether it was the upper third of the back edge or not. I recall touches being disallowed becasue they hit too low on the back edge.

Tim P. Miceli · 10-08-2002, 01:44 PM

What I was figguring was that it would be easier to watch and follow for a more general audience.

If you restrict the use of the sides of the blade then the movement would become more descernable/visable as opposed to going for a whip-over, which is harder to see if your a spectator.

Sports make spectacles on TV not always because of the great skill of the athletes, but becaus of the ease with which the average person can understand and follow the phisical movements of the players and the ball (or in fencings case it would be the sword)

-side: hey maybe they could do for fencing swords what they tried with hockey pucks a couple of years ago, having the sword leaving a trail of color (color being dependant on how fast the blade moved) then on tv, it could look like we were using lightsabers, albeit bendy ones

-

but seriously, how much fun would it be to watch a football/basketball game if the ball or the players moved faster than you could see, let alone score faster than you could see.

epeemike81 · 10-08-2002, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim P. Miceli
What I was figguring was that it would be easier to watch and follow for a more general audience.

If you restrict the use of the sides of the blade then the movement would become more descernable/visable as opposed to going for a whip-over, which is harder to see if your a spectator.

Sports make spectacles on TV not always because of the great skill of the athletes, but becaus of the ease with which the average person can understand and follow the phisical movements of the players and the ball (or in fencings case it would be the sword)

-side: hey maybe they could do for fencing swords what they tried with hockey pucks a couple of years ago, having the sword leaving a trail of color (color being dependant on how fast the blade moved) then on tv, it could look like we were using lightsabers, albeit bendy ones -

but seriously, how much fun would it be to watch a football/basketball game if the ball or the players moved faster than you could see, let alone score faster than you could see.

As you correctly point out, the issue is not the speed of the weapons, but the understanding of the audience. Audiences have been inducted into the sports you mention. For people who don't know whats going on, those sports are NOT fun to watch, no matter how slow/fast they move. if the speed of the weapons made it not spectator friendly, then none of us would enjoy watching it, and speaking for myself, I do.

Also, on a side note, none of the sabrist I know are going for whipovers. especially not the good ones, and especially not since the introduction of S2000 blades.

I would like to avoid getting into the TV argument, as it has been raised here only slightly less often than (and in some cases in congruence with) the flicking argument.

-m

Tim P. Miceli · 10-08-2002, 02:28 PM

epeemike81:

ahh, good point.

As It is though my exposur to all the new stuff in fencing is somewhat limited, I take it that the S2000 blade is stiffer than its counterparts?

epeemike81 · 10-08-2002, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tim P. Miceli
epeemike81:

ahh, good point.

As It is though my exposur to all the new stuff in fencing is somewhat limited, I take it that the S2000 blade is stiffer than its counterparts?

yep.

-m

Purple Fencer · 10-08-2002, 03:17 PM

I believe what was the old minimum flex is now the max. Correct?

Tim P. Miceli · 10-08-2002, 04:47 PM

Cool, I always did think that saber blades were a bit whippy, at least the ones our club are using. -we have/had alot of old equipmet- but thankfully we are starting to get more decent equipment.

In either case I still think it would be cool to watch at least a couple of fencing bouts on tv with the whole color thing, similar to what they did with hockey a few years back.

counter riposte · 10-08-2002, 07:20 PM

There's nothing wrong with using the old sabre for practice. I think its actually a good thing to eliminate all the old sabres. But to put electrical paint on the back edge of the sabre to prevent conductivity would not be extremely effective.

The reason for that is that paint is not as plyable, and will flake off when the blade is bent. Beats with the back of the blade will erode the paint, and valid touches will be recorded on that site, which would be contestable, which would be near impossible to figure out whether or not it is at that particular portion of the blade.

Highland techniques similar to using a Roman short sword may reappear, which no-one likes, and crige at the thought.

And it's just plain simpler this way.

Inquartata · 10-08-2002, 11:07 PM

I was dubious about electric sabre at first. But once they got rid of those dratted capteurs, I soon became a convert and would not want to go back.

I had a good stop-cutting game, but it was of little use in dry because no one ever saw touches to hand or wrist. Suddenly with electric it's useful. OTOH, you can get touches with the flat and next to no force. Each game had different drawbacks; all in all I prefer those of the present electric system. I haven't noticed that heavy hitting has gotten either more or less prevalent---that, it seems to me, has always been a matter of individuals, not of style or the exigencies of scoring.

There has been all sorts of speculation about how to restrict cuts to the edge, from running a wire along the true edge, over the point and down part of the false edge, to making ceramic-and-metal "sandwich" blades. None of them seem terribly feasible. The force of parries in sabre would soon cut any insulation to bits.

As in foil, what is needed to clean things up is a change in the way sabre is refereed, but like in foil that's not likely to happen, either.

KShan5[PrFC] · 10-13-2002, 09:52 PM

Not that I want this to hapen, but couldn't you put some form of plastic along the parts you don't want to be conductive and leave it metal were you do?

counter riposte · 10-14-2002, 04:38 PM

Prohibitively expensive. That and the fact that the material would shear on a back cut or back beat. Not that it actually matters.

haggis · 10-14-2002, 05:22 PM

"As in foil, what is needed to clean things up is a change in the way sabre is refereed, but like in foil that's not likely to happen, either."

Sabre refereeing is very much flavour of the month with the FIE. They think that it's now refereed really well. It has changed a lot over the last few years and is very strictly handled compared to foil.

Jason · 10-15-2002, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by haggis
Sabre refereeing is very much flavour of the month with the FIE. They think that it's now refereed really well. It has changed a lot over the last few years and is very strictly handled compared to foil.

Sabre directing is definately much better than that in foil, but they're both a little silly.
It's no coincidence that no one ever suggests getting rid of the fleche, or changing the design of the blade, or other goofy things like that, in epee.

Inquartata · 10-16-2002, 02:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by haggis
"As in foil, what is needed to clean things up is a change in the way sabre is refereed, but like in foil that's not likely to happen, either."

Sabre refereeing is very much flavour of the month with the FIE. They think that it's now refereed really well. It has changed a lot over the last few years and is very strictly handled compared to foil.

Heh, yes, if you have Ed Korfanty or Derek Cotton doing it it is refereed very well...

Seriously, this may be the case at the top levels, however....well, at Orlando I just saw a one-lighter awarded to the other guy, despite this being pointed out by several bystanders as well as the fencer gored. I myself had not one but two parry-seconde ripostes called "double" (?) in a single bout. The directing is quite spotty at Div II/III level.

All that said, I was talking about a change in directing to enforce the old must-hit-with-edge standard, not a general improvement in level of directing...

epeemike81 · 10-16-2002, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Inquartata
[b]The directing is quite spotty at Div II/III level.[b]

Well, hell. At that level, the EPEE directing is spotty.

-m

counter riposte · 10-16-2002, 04:37 PM

Yes, all you have to do is look at the floor, and watch the lights.

epeemike81 · 10-16-2002, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by counter riposte
Yes, all you have to do is look at the floor, and watch the lights.

Wow....

Attitudes like that are why epee directing is so spotty. Some people think it is easy, which the majority of the time it is. they don't realize, however, that the tough calls in epee are some of the toughest in any weapon.

-m