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Inquartata · 10-16-2002, 11:36 PM

Give us an instance of a tough epee call ( said the sabre fencer ).

DJ Apostrophe · 10-16-2002, 11:46 PM

tough epee call number 1:
i fleche at you
my initial attack fails
i remise and hit you
at the same time as my remise lands, your riposte lands
and we have two lights...
i get the touch?
you get the touch?
we both get the touch?
neither gets a touch?

and thats just one... there are many more... all you other epeeists out there feel free to chime in... i'm in lazy mode and dont want to type much right now (boston bruins game is on, hence, i'm distracted

)
-w

epeemike81 · 10-16-2002, 11:49 PM

hey, none of you epeeists out there give it away.... I wanna hear Inq.'s take on this one first.

-m

Inquartata · 10-17-2002, 12:53 AM

Double touch?

epeemike81 · 10-17-2002, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Inquartata
Double touch?

nope. depends on the timing.

Fencer A fleches. Fencer B parries. A remises and B ripostes and get both lights.

Question one: Did they finish before the pass? If so, double touch.

If they finished after the pass:

Question two: Did the riposte start before the pass? if so, that light is good.

Question three (for inquartata) if the remise and riposte both started before the pass and finished afterwards, is it a double touch? Why or why not.

-m

mfp · 10-17-2002, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DJ Apostrophe
tough epee call number 1:
i fleche at you
my initial attack fails
i remise and hit you
at the same time as my remise lands, your riposte lands
and we have two lights...
i get the touch?
you get the touch?
we both get the touch?
neither gets a touch?

and thats just one... there are many more...

Not a great question since "I fleche ... my initial attack fails" does not describe the position of the fencers (i.e. did the flecher pass the opponent or end up short, nor is there mention whether the fleche resulted in contact or not).

For better questions see the 300 series of questions in the referee study guide:

http://foc.usfencing.org/Referee%20Study%20Guide.htm

dreadfoil · 10-17-2002, 01:15 AM

at the same time your remise lands, the oppositions riposte lands. that would be a double touch and both get points.

epeemike81 · 10-17-2002, 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mfp
Not a great question since "I fleche ... my initial attack fails" does not describe the position of the fencers (i.e. did the flecher pass the opponent or end up short, nor is there mention whether the fleche resulted in contact or not).

For better questions see the 300 series of questions in the referee study guide:

http://foc.usfencing.org/Referee%20Study%20Guide.htm

actually, I think the fact that Inq. didn't ask for more info proves the point.

People need to develop a more healthy respect for epee reffing.

-m

epeemike81 · 10-17-2002, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by dreadfoil
at the same time your remise lands, the oppositions riposte lands. that would be a double touch and both get points.

bzzzzttt.....

Wrong!

-m

DJ Apostrophe · 10-17-2002, 01:21 AM

I deliberately left out the timing... I felt if I gave all the information I would be giving away the answer, also, I felt that the point needed to be emphasized that it was timing that mattered... and if i supplied the timing it wouldn't have been as strong a point because there would have only been one answer... mike is right... the desired response was 'what was the timing'... to which i would have replied: does it matter? and hopefully inq would have said yes... and then i would have given several scenarios... but as i didnt check this thread every two minutes i missed that opportunity...
-w

Inquartata · 10-17-2002, 02:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by epeemike81
nope. depends on the timing.

How does this square with

D. JUDGING OF TOUCHES IN EPEE

t.64 When both competitors are touched, and the apparatus registers both these touches as valid, there is a double touch, that is to say a touch is scored for each competitor.

Nothing in the initial question about timing, before, after, passes or what have you. Two lights, double touch, the rule says. Where is the section of the rules which permits the annulling of one light for other than apparatus failure or touch on an invalid target, assuming the phrase is legitimately ongoing still?

If the pass stops the action, the ref has to determine when the respective actions began, before or after, of course, but this seems no different from tossing a touch "scored" before "fence" is given...

Quote:

Question three (for inquartata) if the remise and riposte both started before the pass and finished afterwards, is it a double touch? Why or why not.

-m

I still say double touch, as that's what the rules seem to say to me. The action is in progress when the two offensive acts begin, and can be validly completed.

mfp · 10-17-2002, 03:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Inquartata
I still say double touch, as that's what the rules seem to say to me. The action is in progress when the two offensive acts begin, and can be validly completed.

Perhaps you should take a look at t.21

epeemike81 · 10-17-2002, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Inquartata
I still say double touch, as that's what the rules seem to say to me. The action is in progress when the two offensive acts begin, and can be validly completed.

nope. The person being passed has the right to finish any action started before the pass. the person passing has no such right. Thus, the call is touch for fencer B.

-m

counter riposte · 10-18-2002, 05:49 PM

So much for looking at the ground and watching lights.

veeco · 10-18-2002, 07:26 PM

Another tough one:

Fencing on non grounded strips, fencer A hits B on the hand as B was going for a toe touch. The side judges can't decide whether the toe touch was good or not, and both lights are on.

What's the call?

oiuyt · 10-19-2002, 12:13 AM

Do we all get to chime in or only the people who don't know but think they do?

I guess I'll leave this one for the people who think epee is something a trained monkey can do in its sleep. :) That and the fact that giving the correct answer kind of spoils the fun for everyone else.

-B :)

Inquartata · 10-19-2002, 12:24 AM

First, I'll note that I haven't seen "side judges", on any sort of strip, in years. Foot judges occasionally.

Then I'll say that were I directing I'd throw out the foot touch and award the other.

But I'll be the first to say that I won't be testing for an epee referee's rating anytime soon.

veeco · 10-19-2002, 02:28 AM

By side judges I mean foot judges of course. Side judges are actually responsible for watching out for foot touches or (in foil and sabre) covering target.

I have seen side judges as recently as last month in our first local tournament.

I don't usually request them, though maybe I should more often, as it seems that referees have a hard time looking for toe touches.

Anyway, the answer of throwing the foot touch and awarding the other is wrong.

The correct answer is that in the case of a double touch when one of the touches is dubious, the person who scored the hit that was valid for sure must be given the choice of accepting the double touch or annuling both touches.

I'll take more time and look up the rule later.

mfp · 10-19-2002, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by veeco

The correct answer is that in the case of a double touch when one of the touches is dubious, the person who scored the hit that was valid for sure must be given the choice of accepting the double touch or annuling both touches.

I'll take more time and look up the rule later.

t.67 (e)

Note that the "special cases" listed in t.67 (e) include what to do when . . .

1) a double touch is registered with one touch valid and the other not valid

and

2) a double touch is registered with one touch "established" and the other touch doubtful

However what to do when (3) a double touch is registered with both touches "doubtful" isn't mentioned. So (anyone) for extra credit, what do you do in that case and cite the specific rule(s) to back up your decision.

KShan5[PrFC] · 10-20-2002, 12:12 AM

Why not just throw both out and start over. It happens in sabre sometimes too. Bellgurds meet, lots of clanging someone touches someone somehow, and at the exact same time the other fencer hits, thus two lights, lots of ugly actions. Maybe the throwing away of touches only haooens in local comps, i dunno, but again, why not throw it out?