Ignoring my Pride when Training?!

[aurora_borealis]

Hello, I am very happy that I found this forum, so that I can get other people's input, on obstacles I'm trying to over come. First off, I've been fencing for the past year, sabre, and I really want to make sure that I continue to improve and don't just plateau from here. So, I'm trying my hardest to get as much advice and to improve.

My main problem has to do with training. I know that the more I practice, the more I will improve. My problem, is that, especially being a woman, I fell that I have to impress everyone. So I find that when I train, I do it to win, not to learn. I have found that I have learned some bad habits and I need to focus on getting my technical skill much better.

So, my main question, is how do I do this? When I'm training how do I focus on doing everything right, when the people I train with are just there to win?

I'm just sending this out to see if anyone else has had the same problem. Any adivce would be appreciated. Thank you!

[noodle]

why does what others are doing matter? a bout in practice is nothing. it doesn't necessarily matter what the score is, or if you win or lose. (unless thats the point, practicing for an event or something -- there are different types of practice bouts, for sure.)

fence each touch in practice how you want to fence it. in your case, it sounds like you want/need to fence them more technically correct. try doing the right stuff when on strip in practice, instead of the stuff that scores the touch against the person you're fencing that second.

[slow_learner]

Sure, it gets competitive in the salle and it's nice to win. But in the end it's your tournament results that count.

It used to matter to me to beat others at practice. But going to tournaments and doing better than them is even more satisfying. Now I just focus on developing technique.

And anyway the salle is different. People are more relaxed and they get pretty cocky. I am amazed at the touches some folks in the club land on me. But I have found often the same people get way too tight in a tournament, and I beat them easily.

So just concentrate on winning your medals. You will get respect in the end.

[Inquartata]

Plateaus are inevitable, so trying to evade them is wasted energy. Don't worry about how fast you progress, and don't get discouraged when you seem to stop doing so. It will be only temporary and will teach you patience, which is one of the hardest lessons to learn in sabre.

I too fence to win in practice. Most people seem to think that's counterproductive, but it has worked for me, and there is nothing mutually exclusive about working on a given action(s) and trying your hardest to win the bout with it/them.

Of course, if it does NOT work for you, there's no use being stubborn about it.

[dharmaqueen]

Fencing is a road, not a destination. Take time to learn things right the first time. Practice new tactics learned in club bouting even though you may not win as you perfect your moves. Plateaus will arise and you just have to work your way through them until they end.
Above all, have tons of fun.

[ApAperture]

I think you shouldn't be too hard on yourself. I just previously had a lesson and my coach said that my need to have everything perfect all the time is messing with the flow of my fencing. If I did an action wrong, too soon, too late, my point is a tad bit higher than it should, I didn't bend my knees enough, I didn't bend my knees at all, my footwork is sloppy, not right, etc... if I think about them too much when I'm fencing it just clouds my thoughts and I end up not fencing well.

As for fencing to win or just for practice, I say both.

Just have fun with it, eventually it'll all click.

And oh, I lose a lot; just learned to be resilient.

[Craig]

Originally Posted by aurora_borealis

When I'm training how do I focus on doing everything right, when the people I train with are just there to win?

You need to work on specific goal setting for your training sessions and your self-discipline to keep you on task.

When you go to practice, what is your goal for that practice? Is it "to fence", "to fence X bouts", to do "Y number of repetitions of drills"?

If you show up, get through your basic warm up and you have no real goal for the night's practice, then you will very easily get sucked into "go fencing X bouts and try to win them all" approach which will do nothing for your fencing.

Show up to the practice, have the plan be that you are going to focus on two main tactics: one that you just learned in a lesson this week and one that you use regularly in bouts. You will do no other actions.

Go about your business and do your drills, both bladework and footwork. If you can, do some partner drills to isolate the actions that you and your coach have determined you should work on.

When it comes time to bouting, mentally review your goals for bouting. Then stick to those. If you get trashed 5-0 in a bout but are working in ways to execute your action, so be it.

After practice, get your journal and write down how well you did vs. your set goals for the practice. You need to write it as the writing process locks it into your head much better than just thinking about the goals and results.

Craig

[Lady Quindecim]

I dislike doing "Yeah, what he said." posts, but Craig is spot on.

But to expand on that...

I have seed fencers start, be lucky, deep doing what gives them touches (against people who are trying to improve their fencing, not just win in practice) then get frustrated when the hit that plateau. Everyone else has improved their technique and the "lucky" fencer's luck runs out.

Your post is quite valid - people need to learn how to practice. On the other hand, there are a lot of existing posts on this subject.

And now for the cliché: Don't just learn how to win, because when that fails, you have nothing to fall back on. Learn how to fence, and winning will come naturally.

[RITFencing]

Yep, excellent post by Craig.

I also found that it was good to give myself quantifiable goals, things like "I will score with a parry 4 riposte 20 times tonight while bouting."

You should also note that winning is a very important skill. Doing everything right is important, but if you can't win the bout, it's meaningless. Doing all of these things is simply a prerequisite to winning more, tougher bouts later one. I think it's important to take 2 or 3 bouts a night and just fence to win.

[TBean]

Also as you train more, you will come to understand what works for your competitive cycle there will be nights that you fence to win. For me, if I am planning on going to a National or even very large region tournament that I care about the results, my training changes with the bouts becoming less about "I'm going to hit with parry 4, 20x tonight," and more about really focusing on what my opponent is doing and how I can implement my tactical plan to beat them. Focusing on making strategic and tactical decisions but not losing sight of the basics - dynamic footwork, good distance etc. There are often fewer, but more intense bouts.

Ultimately in training you need to do both kinds of bouting - fencing with goals to improve technique and implement new skills, and fencing to win. Both have their places in a training cycle, but if you only focus on winning you will reach a plateau, and possibly not know how to move beyond it.

[Gculk]

I know exactly how you mean, actually. Here's my solution. I always try to practice cleanly, while working on different actions. Seems pretty standard, right? Well, if I'm winning a bout, I'll keep the clean practice until the end, even if they start catching up. If I'm not winning the bout, well, good enough. I let the opponent close to victory, (4 in a bout to 5, 8 in a bout to 10, 13 in a bout to 15) then throw everything I've got at them. I'll try to keep it in the motions I'm practicing, but I try and take the match. If you do this, MOST of your points will be put towards practicing a different motion, and the rest will be dedicated to hardcore comeback wins. Both vitally important in competition.

[Lady Quindecim]

Hm.. the issue for me with that line of thinking is that if you "step it up" while keeping in mind the same actions you were practising, then you were not "stepped up" to begin with. This implies that "clean" fencing is not 100% effort.

This is why I believe in the one-touch practice. I don't care who got the last touch, only who gets the next one and how I try to get it. (keeping score is just a way to not hog the piste.)

But I watch people get a lead working on a particular set of actions, loose the lead, then surrender form for the win.
Changing tactics when behind is common, but changing my sacrificing discipline during practice is not worth it. When you are then in that DE and you start falling behind 6-8, 6-10, 6-12... and all you have have to fall back on is "whatever it takes" and bad habits prevail, then you will never be better than your bad habits. Hence, plateau. (or, your bad habits for you are still good enough for winning World Champion year after year and then what are you worried about anyway.)

I hope that made sense. I am not trying to say that what works for one person does not really work for them, I'm just giving my take on it.

[JacoKierkegaard]

I fence to win in the club, even though at this stage that fails to happen more than it actually happens. Honestly though, I still have a hell of a good time whether I'm winning or not. I just focus on using good technique while still trying to beat the other guy, and I get tips from other people on ways to improve my game, as well as the occasional one-on-one with my coach.

[remistress]

There is a lot of good advice here.

Sometimes fencing as a girl can be hard. Some of us are hard wired to be pleasers, feeling that we need to win all the time to have the accolades of our coaches. Some of us feel the need to overcome the stereotype of women's fencing. Some of us are drawn to the sport because we like to win and winning seems to say, "See how far I came by myself!" I can't presume to know if you are any of these, but they are all unimportant. The only expectations you have to live up to are your own. If you want to get better...you eventually will have to set some goals and stick to achieving that.

I think that what RITFencing said can be incorporated into what TBean said (i.e. even fencing to win you can quantify how many wins or what your overall indicator should be). One thing I would caution you against is changing what you are working on based on if you are ahead or behind (if you have decided to work on technique for the night). A good friend of mine who is a good fencer once told me she will practice actions against certain people she *knows* it won't work against. This is because she wants to feel what it feels like when an action doesn't work, so if she's in a tournament situation she knows when to change. Just some food for thought.

*Everyone* has people they hate losing to in practice. Question is are you willing to possibly lose a little today to win tomorrow? Hope so.

[Gculk]

Lady: You misunderstood me. When I said to 'step it up' to catch up when an opponent starts to pull away, I meant by allowing yourself to use any techniques to gain that victory. Not to sacrifice technique for the points, but to take the points with ANY technique, not just the specific ones you're practicing.

For example, I'll often practice, refusing to do anything but straight attacks, and direct parry ripostes. Since I fence people that have nice disengages, this forces me to either attack in time, and either time them out, or block them out by interrupting their rhythm with my counter-attack, or wait until they're too deep to disengage easily and parry reposte. However, if I start getting beat heavily, I'll turn it up and do my own disengages, attack with prise de fers, anything that can give me the victory, as long as I can do it cleanly.

Understand?

[Lady Quindecim]

Gculk
Okay, yeah. That makes sense and I see the difference.
Similarly (kinda), when I am working on something in particular, some opponents will not "play nice" and after they figure out what I am doing, execute actions that invalidate my drill and I have to work on something else for the remainder of the bout.

You are right. Knowing when a plan needs to change is a good discipline.
Thanks!

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Craig

"go fencing X bouts and try to win them all" approach which will do nothing for your fencing.

See, that's the "folk wisdom" to which I referred in my earlier post.

Craig, perhaps you'd like to explain how my successes fit into that "nothing", considering that that is exactly what I do, and indeed ALL I do in practice?

Originally Posted by Gculk

For example, I'll often practice, refusing to do anything but straight attacks, and direct parry ripostes.

And what happens when your opponent, who is also following this theory, decides that he will refuse to do anything but PIL? Completely vitiates what both of you are trying to do...

Fencing is not about rote actions. It's about adaptation and adjustment...neither of which you are doing by practicing "one action". You do yourself no favors, IMO, and none to your clubmates, either. At least you should have 3 or 4 different actions to work on, deciding which one to work on in any given phrase in the interestof flexibility and variety...