Instructional method for epee.

[CoachGerryDuran]

I recently purchased a set of Hit-Mate wireless scoring equipment (see at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCyMM8hPZF0). I've devised an epee training program (remote from the Salle), in which the convention and practice of foil is introduce to the students. In the practice and training the torso is used as target. Foil technique is instructed and competitively practice. In the instructional practice games epees with foil guards are used and there are no off targets. Students learn to referee and call the priority of attacks in competitive fencing fraises. Points go to the fencer with a single light and to the attacking fencer when a double is recorded.
At about mid-point into this High School Physical Education semester the students start their total epee training and competitive practice.

I would appreciate having the opportunity to study comments from epeeists and coaches on this instructional method for epee.

Thank-you for your consideration, GerryDuran

[noodle]

i suppose my first question would be, why go through the effort of making a foil/epee hybrid with the intent of preparing someone for epee? what good is there in this?

[catwood1]

Ok, well, I wasn't going to respond the first time I saw this, but if you started another thread about it, and really REALLY want critique, here goes:

Why would you possibly do that?!?!?! What are you accomplishing? If the goal is to teach epee, teach epee. If the goal is to teach foil, teach foil. And using foil guards to teach anything epee related is bad, students will get used to having a nice easy target to hit, then when using an actual epee, it won't be there.

This sounds like a bad way to train foil fencers and a VERY bad way to train epee fencers...

[noodle]

Originally Posted by catwood1

Ok, well, I wasn't going to respond the first time I saw this, but if you started another thread about it, and really REALLY want critique, here goes:

Why would you possibly do that?!?!?! What are you accomplishing? If the goal is to teach epee, teach epee. If the goal is to teach foil, teach foil. And using foil guards to teach anything epee related is bad, students will get used to having a nice easy target to hit, then when using an actual epee, it won't be there.

This sounds like a bad way to train foil fencers and a VERY bad way to train epee fencers...

i don't necessarily think that there's no merit in this, but it just seems superfluous.
/my $0.02

[catwood1]

Originally Posted by noodle

i don't necessarily think that there's no merit in this, but it just seems superfluous.
/my $0.02

I have a hard time seeing how this could benefit an epee fencer.

The Pros:

1) By reffing, you learn what actions are, and when they are hitting. Reffing can help your fencing significantly, because you're seeing actions, and seeing when they are failing, and when they aren't failing. You also *might* get better at seeing and identifying different actions... I guess...

2) You learn that trying to "double out" or counter attack can be risky, because in this case, if its 2 lights, it goes against you... I guess...

The Cons:

1) You're completely ignoring all forward / shallow target which changes the tactics significantly. Even though most epee hits arrive to deep target, most START going to shallow targets. Take that away, and you're fencing a different game.

2) Eliminating the double touch changes tactics significantly. If a counter attack thats 2 lights is counted against you, you coudl develop a strong opposition against counter attacking. In epee, this could be a problem...

3) You are effectively just fencing foil with a really tight lock-out timing. Its just a fundamentally different game.


So if there is no off target, then do arm hits count? If so, then the use of a foil guard is gonna eff some stuff up...

[big daddy]

Gary good to see you online. Welcome to the fourm.

[NGV]

Originally Posted by noodle

i suppose my first question would be, why go through the effort of making a foil/epee hybrid with the intent of preparing someone for epee?

Why not?

To put it a different way, let's propose three possible approaches to initial training for a prospective epee fencer:

A. Start off with epee.
B. Start off with foil, with the intention of switching to epee later.
C. Start off with a foil/epee hybrid, with the intention of switching to epee later.

I can understand why one might assert (and many people do) that A is clearly superior to B (and, by extension, superior to C).

On the other hand,I think that B is also a pretty common approach. And, assuming that the eventual goal is to drop foil and switch to epee, I don't see any reason to simply assume that B is superior to C.

The only thing that I don't understand is why the foilepees would have foil guards.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by NGV

Why not?

To put it a different way, let's propose three possible approaches to initial training for a prospective epee fencer:

A. Start off with epee.
B. Start off with foil, with the intention of switching to epee later.
C. Start off with a foil/epee hybrid, with the intention of switching to epee later.

I can understand why one might assert (and many people do) that A is clearly superior to B (and, by extension, superior to C).

On the other hand,I think that B is also a pretty common approach. And, assuming that the eventual goal is to drop foil and switch to epee, I don't see any reason to simply assume that B is superior to C.

The only thing that I don't understand is why the foilepees would have foil guards.

my point is, would it actually be worth it to build a hybrid, including the equipment system to make it work? why wouldn't you just put an epee in the hands of the kids and give them a drill that is foil-ish or whatever?

[NGV]

Originally Posted by noodle

my point is, would it actually be worth it to build a hybrid, including the equipment system to make it work? why wouldn't you just put an epee in the hands of the kids and give them a drill that is foil-ish or whatever?

I can't speak for Gerry Duran, but I can think of a few hypothetical arguments off the top of my head.

First, for a significant percentage of coaches and students, the most crucial element of a beginning training program is that it not cause the student to drop fencing out of boredom or frustration. With the advent of inexpensive wireless epee fencing that can easily be practiced anywhere, it may be feasible to introduce the excitement of competitive electric fencing to a large number of beginners who might have quickly become bored with dry drilling (while at the same time introducing some of the technical and tactical foundations for later development).

Second, exposing beginner epeeists to the timing of electric epee, combined with foil phrasing, might offer some training benefits. For example, students may develop an early, intuitive sense of the distance/timing that produces one light vs. two light outcomes, and of which kinds of parry-ripostes are viable in epee (and which are vulnerable to the remise). Or, students may be less prone to developing an early habit of overly relying on the counterattack.

Again, all hypothetical - I'm not a coach, have zero qualifications, and have no idea if any of the above is accurate. But, I'd definitely applaud any efforts to take advantage of new technology in creative ways, and wouldn't reflexively dismiss new ideas along those lines.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by NGV

I can't speak for Gerry Duran, but I can think of a few hypothetical arguments off the top of my head.

First, for a significant percentage of coaches and students, the most crucial element of a beginning training program is that it not cause the student to drop fencing out of boredom or frustration. With the advent of inexpensive wireless epee fencing that can easily be practiced anywhere, it may be feasible to introduce the excitement of competitive electric fencing to a large number of beginners who might have quickly become bored with dry drilling (while at the same time introducing some of the technical and tactical foundations for later development).

Second, exposing beginner epeeists to the timing of electric epee, combined with foil phrasing, might offer some training benefits. For example, students may develop an early, intuitive sense of the distance/timing that produces one light vs. two light outcomes, and of which kinds of parry-ripostes are viable in epee (and which are vulnerable to the remise). Or, students may be less prone to developing an early habit of overly relying on the counterattack.

Again, all hypothetical - I'm not a coach, have zero qualifications, and have no idea if any of the above is accurate. But, I'd definitely applaud any efforts to take advantage of new technology in creative ways, and wouldn't reflexively dismiss new ideas along those lines.

again, why does doing this require anything but a hitmate and a specific set of drills?

[catwood1]

Originally Posted by NGV

A. Start off with epee.
B. Start off with foil, with the intention of switching to epee later.
C. Start off with a foil/epee hybrid, with the intention of switching to epee later.

I think that C is definitely as good or better than B, but A is the best of all. If the fencers are DEFINITELY going to move to epee, why have them start someone in between?

[Allen Evans]

This epee training method reads like a technological solution to a pedagological problem.

AE

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

This epee training method reads like a technological solution to a pedagological problem.

AE

yes, this.

[jjefferies]

The rationale for the hybrid draws my curiosity . As it's not been posted yet I'm hazarding a guess that they wish to start training with foil, it is the pedagogical game. But using the wireless system ( I don't believe the current version supports foil ). And as we all know it is more difficult to learn ROW as you grow older. So foil is generally the first game.

And if it keeps the student's interest why not? After watching our beginners struggle through with dry foils makes me feel anything that registers touches would be an improvement.

[keith]

Originally Posted by Allen Evans

This epee training method reads like a technological solution to a pedagological problem.

AE

Using modified weapons and modified rules can be a perfectly acceptable pedagogical tool. Using foils (and electrical aparatus) shorted out at the bodycord/reel connection to provide epee lite for kids, for example.

[DangerMouse]

This is how Jean-Claude Magnon (multiple olympic medalist) starts his beginners in France. He puts epee guards on foils so the weapons weigh less until students develop the necesarry muscle strength. They just use the off target lights to indicate a hit.