I have a ethics/good practices/conundrum that will rear its ugly little head for me shortly. I'd appreciate any thoughts or advice others might have. I'm sure its something that has arisen before, and hearing how others handled it, and what the fall out was, might help guide me.
Two fencers from the same club are attending a tournament and fencing in the same event. Prior to the event, in fact, prior to anyone registering for the event, the coach made it known that he would be available, for the usual coaching fee. One fencer took advantage of this, and has paid the coaching fees, and the other has not.
What is the correct thing to do should these two fencers meet in the competition? Coach the one who paid, but not the other during the event? Talk with the one prior to the bout about strategies, but not actively coach during the event? Don't get involved in the bout at all?
If, due to confidentiality reasons, you'd prefer not to discuss situations that have arisen in the past for you in an open forum, a PM would be appreciated, and would be kept confidential.
__________________
"Prefiero morir de pie que vivir siempre arrodillado." - Emiliano Zapata
Fellow coaches -
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What is the correct thing to do should these two fencers meet in the competition? Coach the one who paid, but not the other during the event? Talk with the one prior to the bout about strategies, but not actively coach during the event? Don't get involved in the bout at all?
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Don't coach bouts between teammates. Make it clear that coaching fees do not include bouts against teammates. This just creates bad blood in the club.
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"...you must be a pirate for the pirate's code to apply and you're not. And thirdly, the code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules." Capt. Barbossa
Last edited by MdA; 04-07-2009 at 04:17 PM..
Reason: msp
Two fencers from the same club are attending a tournament and fencing in the same event. Prior to the event, in fact, prior to anyone registering for the event, the coach made it known that he would be available, for the usual coaching fee. One fencer took advantage of this, and has paid the coaching fees, and the other has not.
What is the correct thing to do should these two fencers meet in the competition? Coach the one who paid, but not the other during the event? Talk with the one prior to the bout about strategies, but not actively coach during the event? Don't get involved in the bout at all?
This has not arisen for me, so I'm just thinking about it now.
I think in principle I would state in advance that hiring me as a coach for the event doesn't include coaching one of my fencers against the other, and that I won't do that. If the fencer still wants to pay for coaching with that proviso, fine; otherwise I'd return their money.
An exception to this is if the other fencer is paying some other coach from the same club to coach them. If both fencers are getting coaching from within the club, that should be okay.
Hmm, I'm not sure how I'd feel if the other fencer was paying for a coach from *outside* the club. Would that change my mind? I'm not sure.
I make it clear to all of my fencers what a tournament coaching fee covers, and what it doesn't. I don't coach against club mates at tournaments, even if one of them hasn't paid a coaching fee, or if BOTH of them have.
I'd agree with the others and just make it a policy that coaches fee does not apply to clubmate bouts.
I am currently wondering how I will handle the problem of 2 students fencing in a competition. 1 of them happens to be my girlfriend of a couple years. A few months ago, when it was a 15-1 kind of bout, it was an easy decision. Now its about a 15-10 bout without any coaching.
There is no good solution to this one.
__________________
"Sir, didn't I parry"
"You didn't take advantage of his blade enough, so no."
In my son's club the point is clearly made that if two clubmates fence each other in a tournament the coach or coaches will not coach either one. Further it is not allowed for clubmates to coach against another clubmate unless they have decided before hand that this is allowable.
I am a little surprised by the responses here. I would have thought most would feel that in this case, the coach would help the fencer that hired him, even against clubmates.
Not sure what I would do.
I have seen twins go against eachother in DEs. That has to be tough.
I would think one would need less coaching agains someone whom they fence regularly.
But I don't know.
__________________ I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
I generally coach whichever is the underdog by a significant margin. Since I try to emphasize that performing at the best of your ability is the end goal more than winning, sometimes I'll coach both for 30 seconds each at the break. In these situations, the advice usually consists of something along the lines of "set it up with distance" or "hand first".
Chris is a college kid dating another college kid. His ethical responsibilities as a "coach" in this situation are far from a professional level. In fact, as he is in reality just another member of his college club, one could easily make the argument that the term "coach" is being misapplied (no offense, Chris). I think you're preaching the wrong sermon.
I am a little surprised by the responses here. I would have thought most would feel that in this case, the coach would help the fencer that hired him, even against clubmates.
The implications of that behavior become quite severe. Fencers start paying coaching fees as a sort of "protection" payment so their own coach doesn't coach against them.
A coach who willingly puts him or her self into this situation is courting a club meltdown.
Chris is a college kid dating another college kid. His ethical responsibilities as a "coach" in this situation are far from a professional level. In fact, as he is in reality just another member of his college club, one could easily make the argument that the term "coach" is being misapplied (no offense, Chris). I think you're preaching the wrong sermon.
Most people reading this thread wouldn't know that....thanks for pointing it out. Just want to show where we have been on related topics ...in the past few months.
And it would be difficult to coach the other fencer in this situation
Last edited by MdA; 04-08-2009 at 09:48 AM..
Reason: add
The implications of that behavior become quite severe. Fencers start paying coaching fees as a sort of "protection" payment so their own coach doesn't coach against them.
A coach who willingly puts him or her self into this situation is courting a club meltdown.
AE
Cool. I will keep that in mind. I had thought that the "team bond" would have come with understanding of the bigger picture, but I have never been in the position. This is good advice.
__________________ I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
I make it clear to all of my fencers what a tournament coaching fee covers, and what it doesn't. I don't coach against club mates at tournaments, even if one of them hasn't paid a coaching fee, or if BOTH of them have.
It just raises too many problems, as MdA states.
AE
This is what should be expected. An undercurrent, but probably the most important aspect of this thread to me is: Coaches need to communicate early and often to avoid conflicts or perceived favoritism.
As a parent, if the coach doesn't lay out how they will deal with fencers at a tournament, ask so it's clear what you will get when paying coaching fees.
Another corollary to this communication is to be sure to explain how you (as a coach) will determine who will get coached when two fencers from your club (that paid) are called to different strips at the same time. For parents who have not been told up front, it's a little disconcerting when the coach is not there, but with another fencer (that has also paid). The other fencer might have a tougher bout, is higher/lower in the tableau, with points at stake, and needs coaching more than the other at the time. Ideally the coach can run between strips, but the reality is that at times, a decision must be made and one fencer gets "more" coaching than the other.
I've seen coaches running between strips get more of a workout than the fencers to try and insure that all get the coaching they need. I've also seen parents that think money paid demands 100% of a coach's time even though there might be two or more club fencers (all who have paid) that deserve some of the coach's time.
The communication shouldn't end when the tournament ends either. A debrief should take place between coach(es), fencers that competed, and the parents (if the fencer is younger) so that the process of coaching at a tournament is not so mysterious to parents. These parents then become allies in the coaching process and able to help educate other parents as well as manage their own child's expectations.
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"Back off man, I'm a scientist." - Dr. Peter Venkman
Most people reading this thread wouldn't know that....thanks for pointing it out. Just want to show where we have been on related topics ...in the past few months.
And it would be difficult to coach the other fencer in this situation
Ha, yea, I guess I wasn't very clear. Thanks for clarifying that Jason.
I am a junior in college, and am the coach of my team, although I'm basically just a member of said team that runs practice and gives lessons. I'd call that a "coach" . My girlfriend took up fencing after meeting me, and now, obviously, I am her coach.
__________________
"Sir, didn't I parry"
"You didn't take advantage of his blade enough, so no."
One thought which hasn't been mentioned here -- roll coaching fees into the competitive program(s). My wife's coach first introduced me to the idea, and we implemented it at NWFC this year, tacking on an extra $50/mo to competitive and $30/mo to pre-comp membership fees, and then using that figure as our budget for event support travel. The parents actually appreciate the fact that makes predicting their costs much easier, and we don't have to worry about these situations as much.
Event fees are still charged for rec fencers, and some non-NWFC fencers have even paid event fees to get coaching support. In the cases where our fencers haven't paid for event fees, we'll still coach them, but only if nobody else is fencing.
This doesn't actually solve the dillemma (to which I say, no coaching against teammates in important events -- fun events, the underdog gets help for training purposes), but might moderate it a bit.
Darius--good idea. Lots of clubs worry about putting down a floor and only once the doors are open do they think about policies, procedures, and pricing.
Almost anyone who has been fencing for a while can come up with a half dozen situations in which there is room for mis-understanding or mis-communication in the club environment. It's good for club owners and coaches to have policies -- preferably written down and on the web site or a fencing document -- that outlines the club's take on these situations.
Thanks for the thoughts folks, lots here to think about. Definitely some nice recap. I'll see if I can't learn from others' experiences.
Good topic…and thanks for the thoughtful questions and answers.
Here is another question for the forum. This is one that I am very familiar with from personal experience. What about coaching your own kids (sons and daughters) in the same club or on the same team? At practice? During bouts with other teammates?
I have followed the rule (mentioned above) about no strip coaching bouts between teammates….and especially between my three sons…except in the case of low impact or practice bouts for learning. But, I have often been accused of favoritism by other parents in the club.
I have even been accused…by other parents… of teaching their kids the “wrong stuff” during lessons….so that my sons could beat them. Or at least…not teaching them the “right stuff” to beat my sons.
What about this one?…let’s put on the lawyer pants and walk down that road for awhile….
Last edited by MdA; 04-08-2009 at 04:42 PM..
Reason: delete dup
. My girlfriend took up fencing after meeting me, and now, obviously, I am her coach.
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