NOC/ROC News & 2009-2010 Bid Packet

[hello?]

Shouldn't some of these things be figured out before .

One of the problems I have with the NOC/ROC idea is precisely that nothing seems to have been figured out 'before.' (Not even the name.) Here we are, facing all kinds of 'real' problems/questions (deficit/concentration of youth events in some areas, lowered/or-not fencing numbers due to economy etc.) and we come up with a 'made up' problem to figure out?

[hello?]

I If we do things right, we'll end up with a lot of good destination tournaments that can attract fencers on their own,

It WOULD be nice if the Duel was not held on a weekend where it is super-expesive to get to Las Vegas. (A 'destination' not just for fencers is not a good/affordable 'destination' for most fencers....which is why we have the NACs in horrid weather situations most of the time.)

[catwood1]

Shouldn't these things be available to ANY CLUB holding ANY USFA-sanctioned tournament right now? These sound like things that should come from just plain membership, unless I am missing something.

This is a good point. Like, a really, REALLY good point. Why aren't these things already available to everyone. Seems like the kinda thing a NGB should be doing to help fencing in general.

[peet]

One of the problems I have with the NOC/ROC idea is precisely that nothing seems to have been figured out 'before.' (Not even the name.) Here we are, facing all kinds of 'real' problems/questions (deficit/concentration of youth events in some areas, lowered/or-not fencing numbers due to economy etc.) and we come up with a 'made up' problem to figure out?

I don't think the issue of ever-increasing NAC event sizes is a made-up problem. Sure, it's not as bad this year while no one has two pennies to rub together, but as soon as the economy is back, the Gargantuan Div1 ME problem will be back to bite us in the rear.

One day we'll be running a tournament with three 250 person events in one day, and we'll really wish someone had been working on a whole different structure for fencing competitions years before.

Or we could get started on it now.

-p

[edew]

It WOULD be nice if the Duel was not held on a weekend where it is super-expesive to get to Las Vegas. (A 'destination' not just for fencers is not a good/affordable 'destination' for most fencers....which is why we have the NACs in horrid weather situations most of the time.)

The Duel was held the first weekend in January, which is NOT super-expensive to get to. It's only super expensive for New Year's Eve.

[CvilleFencer]

Shouldn't these things be available to ANY CLUB holding ANY USFA-sanctioned tournament right now? These sound like things that should come from just plain membership, unless I am missing something.

QFT. Add characters.

[mgriff]

This is a good point. Like, a really, REALLY good point. Why aren't these things already available to everyone. Seems like the kinda thing a NGB should be doing to help fencing in general.

What do you think is needed? Have you looked at what's available NOW on the USFA website--guides for running divisions, starting clubs, templates for press releases, a guide to promoting the sport (disclaimer: I wrote that one)? Anything the ROC committee comes up with I expect will end up on the website downloadable for general use along with all the items there now.

If what you'd like to see isn't there, have you talked with someone in the USFA administration about it? Have you considered working up something of the sort yourself?

Not to pick on you specifically, Chris--you just happened to be the one who triggered an old rant of mine: That NGB that should be doing all this stuff to help fencing in general isn't some office somewhere with the power to do whatever's needed as soon as it's thought of, if only it would bother. That NGB is us--and the more of us who work to create and do what's needed, the sooner we'll get things working the way we think they should.

/end rant (for this iteration, anyway)

Mary

UPDATE: FWIW, the Club Resource Kit that was posted last fall is not currently on the USFA website. The PR guide I wrote is available in an online version and I'd be happy to send a pdf version to anyone who'd like one. (I understand it was also included in this season's club CD.)
2nd UPDATE: The Club Resource Kit is too on the USFA website here.

[Mr Epee]

Triggered an old rant of mine: That NGB that should be doing all this stuff to help fencing in general isn't some office somewhere with the power to do whatever's needed as soon as it's thought of, if only it would bother.

Then where are the plans to empower the members to serve themselves?

That NGB is us--and the more of us who work to create and do what's needed, the sooner we'll get things working the way we think they should.

Mary

Excuse me, but no. This is silly.

The USFA is a member-service organization.

Without quality strategic planning, communication, and leadership all the volunteer work is wasted. In fact, some volunteers do more harm than good. The volunteers who often do the most harm are the ones who charge off and start 'fixing' things. You are experienced enough to know this.

Also, disorganization, lack of clear goals, and petty politics keeps many highly qualified individuals from volunteering.

Watching a chicken flop around without a head can be amusing, but it's not particularly productive. I see that you are an advocate of more flopping.

I asked earlier what the specific purpose/mission of this ROC program is, and I still don't know. It's an idea that has great potential, but it can't be all things to all people.

[catwood1]

What do you think is needed? Have you looked at what's available NOW on the USFA website--guides for running divisions, starting clubs, templates for press releases, a guide to promoting the sport (disclaimer: I wrote that one)? Anything the ROC committee comes up with I expect will end up on the website downloadable for general use along with all the items there now.

If what you'd like to see isn't there, have you talked with someone in the USFA administration about it? Have you considered working up something of the sort yourself?

Not to pick on you specifically, Chris--you just happened to be the one who triggered an old rant of mine: That NGB that should be doing all this stuff to help fencing in general isn't some office somewhere with the power to do whatever's needed as soon as it's thought of, if only it would bother. That NGB is us--and the more of us who work to create and do what's needed, the sooner we'll get things working the way we think they should.

/end rant (for this iteration, anyway)

Mary

UPDATE: FWIW, the Club Resource Kit that was posted last fall is not currently on the USFA website. The PR guide I wrote is available in an online version and I'd be happy to send a pdf version to anyone who'd like one. (I understand it was also included in this season's club CD.)
2nd UPDATE: The Club Resource Kit is too on the USFA website here.

There's nothing in particular that I'd like to see, but I don't run events. However, claiming that a benefit of hosting a RAC / ROC / NOC whatever implies that there ARE resources that are not available to the general public, but only available to you if you host a ROC. If thats true, that seems very stupid. If not, then it was a miscommunication.

[mgriff]

There's nothing in particular that I'd like to see, but I don't run events. However, claiming that a benefit of hosting a RAC / ROC / NOC whatever implies that there ARE resources that are not available to the general public, but only available to you if you host a ROC. If thats true, that seems very stupid. If not, then it was a miscommunication.

OK, I'll try to be more precise.

We (the ROC committee) focus our efforts specifically on ROC event organizers and potential organizers because that is our job. But there are/will be resources we are creating (or at least trying to promote the development of) for the use of ROC tournament organizers that will end up also being useful and available to any tournament organizer, just as I am sure there are other USFA committees creating resources for other groups that will also be useful to us.

[seak]

-mgriff

As a concept I heartily support the ROC/NOC idea and would like to endorse it, however as someone who's been involved in organizing one of the major tournaments that it would seem to make sense to be involved in the ROC/NOC process I see virtually no benefit.

At this years cherry blossom we had over 400 fencers over 6 events. This would have netted the NOC folks more then 2000 dollars, what are you spending money on that you need that much money (*6 plus 100/bid app) that this is your budget? Plus we'd have to pay for one of your people to come observe the event (and thanks I think we already have pretty competent bc).

For that 2000 we would have received some amount of advertising, but my guess is not that many more fencers. Advice on how to run a tournament (yeah we try and get better other year, but my guess is the informal conversations we have with others who organize these types of events are actually more useful). And the top 4 get to fence in Div 1A, and get points in the circuit.

Of these, only the last is (circuit div 1a) is really all that useful, and the reality is that many of the people who took top 4 this weekend, especially in the epee aren't planning on fencing on div1a, and the rest can probably qualify through their section (although they might prefer to do it at a ROC/NOC).

Given the fact that the USFA is trying to create this circuit and potentially needs these tournaments more then the tournaments need them, it might make sense to lower the fee/fencer at the start, or alternatively to allow for a flat fee as an alternative to the 5/fencer tag.

Going forward, if the ROC/NOC people were to help in referee hiring or provide referees and grounded strips, or if they were to award div 1 points of some kind (sort of like satellite world cups), that might entice greater participation of the larger tournaments, and make this circuit more worthwhile for everyone.

Just my 2cents

(note: I'm not writing this in any sort of official capacity and it should be taken as by no means any indication of whether or not the CBO will be an ROC or not next year. These are merely personal observations)

[telkanuru]

I can say that if there were points on the table, there would have been an extra 2 fencers in my car (to the CBO).

[seak]

What type of points? I agree div1 points would prob be a major draw, curious if people feel the same way about the ROC/NOC points.

[Inquartata]

It WOULD be nice if the Duel was not held on a weekend where it is super-expesive to get to Las Vegas. (A 'destination' not just for fencers is not a good/affordable 'destination' for most fencers....which is why we have the NACs in horrid weather situations most of the time.)

I demand an investigation into how these decisions were made!

We need transparency! Accountability! Heads must roll!!!!

[fdad]

What type of points? I agree div1 points would prob be a major draw, curious if people feel the same way about the ROC/NOC points.

Div 1 Points would make a difference, NOC points mean nothing (at least they don't now).

[hello?]

What do you think is needed? Have you looked at what's available NOW on the USFA website--guides for running divisions, starting clubs, templates for press releases, a guide to promoting the sport (disclaimer: I wrote that one)? Anything the ROC committee comes up with I expect will end up on the website downloadable for general use along with all the items there now.

If what you'd like to see isn't there, have you talked with someone in the USFA administration about it? Have you considered working up something of the sort yourself?

Not to pick on you specifically, Chris--you just happened to be the one who triggered an old rant of mine: That NGB that should be doing all this stuff to help fencing in general isn't some office somewhere with the power to do whatever's needed as soon as it's thought of, if only it would bother. That NGB is us--and the more of us who work to create and do what's needed, the sooner we'll get things working the way we think they should.

/end rant (for this iteration, anyway)

Mary

UPDATE: FWIW, the Club Resource Kit that was posted last fall is not currently on the USFA website. The PR guide I wrote is available in an online version and I'd be happy to send a pdf version to anyone who'd like one. (I understand it was also included in this season's club CD.)
2nd UPDATE: The Club Resource Kit is too on the USFA website here.

Sorry, Mary. But YOU were the one who said that one of the things that clubs hosting NOC/ROCs/Whatever's would get in return for the fees they paid the USFA for the NOC/ROC/Whatever-designation would be these helpful aids, implying that these were aids not available to the general public. (otherwise, they would not be perks.)

[hello?]

Among the benefits we're working on offering are resources to help tournament organizers--an operations manual for running a fairly large tournament, advice and assistance (non-monetary--our entire budget comes from those fees) for obtaining equipment and qualified officials, news release templates, etc. Even established tournaments want to improve their events to appeal to more competitors and increase local and regional awareness of the sport.

Mary

To be clear, this is what I was referring to -- stuff that the USFA should be making available to everybody -- not just as a 'benefit' of running a NOC/ROC.

[Peach]

The ROC's are a good idea whose time is coming, and when I mention them to fencers I know they are immediately interested. There are many fencers for whom our small and often moderately distant sectionals just aren't appealing enough to warrant the risk of going and not qualifying.* The idea of good regional tournaments that offer interesting competition, good refereeing, an alternative qualification path to Div IA has a pretty strong appeal. The points system has some potential; it could be used to keep track of the strength of fencers in a region, and it could also be used as a "cup" challenge like the Chesapeake Challenge Circuit. I don't think enough people know about them right now, though. It usually comes as a surprise when I mention it. Odd as it may seem to us on this forum, not everybody reads what gets posted here

*For me this year, since I have a conflict with Summer Nationals, though I'm signed up for sectionals because they're good practice, it seems awkward that I may (usually do) take a qualification spot, when someone else wants it more than I do.

[hello?]

I plan to go to the NY Grand Prix instead of the NY NOC. A lot of it depends on plain conflicts...

[mgriff]

To be clear, this is what I was referring to -- stuff that the USFA should be making available to everybody -- not just as a 'benefit' of running a NOC/ROC.

Of course, the USFA should have all these resources for its members. *Nobody* thinks otherwise.

The problem is that all these resources have to be created by *somebody.* But because so many of us are already working on other USFA projects, it's going to take some time. You think it all should happen faster? Come help--talk to your division officers, your section rep, the referee on your strip who also happens to be a board member. Tell them what you'd like to help with, and if you don't know what you'd like to do, they'll be able to come with some ideas for you--there's plenty that needs doing.

As an idealistic congenital optimist, I like thinking of the USFA as a "we" that I am a part of, rather than an alien "them." I can talk about "them" until I'm blue in the face, but it won't have any effect; the "we" makes things happen, which leaves me far less frustrated.

Mary
(Switching to BC mode for a while--Portland's coming up fast)