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achilleus · 10-04-2002, 03:48 PM

Regional tournaments on the west coast have been growing in strength and popularity lately. It started with Duel in the Desert, and this the Long Beach Invitational has memebers of the Puerto Rican national team fencing.

The 2 big differences I've noticed between these two tournaments and NAC's is:

1) Money prize

2) Everyone who attends says nothing but good things about the events and the organizing committees.

Now, considering that NAC's have trouble breaking even, always have complaints about organizing, and have spotty attendance a couple of thoughts have entered my mind.

1) Does the USFA recognize the popularity of these tournaments as a good thing?

2) Can the USFA learn from these events and incorporate some of the techniques (marketing, organizing, etc.) used at these tournaments to strengthen NAC's? Or are the NAC's so large that effectively running an event and satisfying the fencers is an impossiblity?

3) Is it just the money? And if it is, should the USFA consider monetary prizes?

4) Does location or other factors play a role in the popularity of the tournament? For example, is Duel in the Desert popular in part because lots of people love going to Vegas, which is easily accesible as oppossed to South Bend in the middle of winter. And if so, should the USFA change accordingly?

edew · 10-04-2002, 04:30 PM

Certainly it's not the money. If you look at the people who signed up, the vast majority of those competing in the mixed epee, for example, have no chance of making it into the money round.

Same with foil, a little less so in sabre, only because of the fewer competitors.

It is partly the location. Some people might not like Vegas, but an awful lot of people (in general) like to go. Long Beach is certainly not the top destination point, and the event is held in gymnasium, which isn't as sexy as a hotel, but there are external events afterwards and during the competition that makes them very "attendee-friendly".

A friend who attended the World Championships this year (as a competitor), for the first time said she was completely amazed at the way the event was staged. It's light-years ahead of what the USFA does.

Now, certainly it's not the case that members of the USFA tournament committee have never seen an international event. Many on the committee are constant attendees at world championships. But, I think the problem is a lack of attention to what is decided at the committee in regards to where the money should be spent. There is a lot of money spent of flying referees in at higher fares than usual. The Olympic desk does not offer the cheapest (or even convenient) flights. Some referees, who don't bother to do their own Orbitz search or such, call in and get an expensive ticket. What do they care, USFA reimburses them for it.

However, USFA national is going to push more events to the regions. The regions (where the current regional youth events are being conducted) are demographically decided, as opposed to political boundaries such as divisions and sections. In those regions, starting with youth, all major competitions will be conducted. People will qualify from the regions to compete at the summer nationals, which (I think, I hope) is a money maker for the USFA.

I don't think USFA should be in the business of offering monetary prizes. The actual amount isn't so big. Yeah, the Duel In The Desert and the Hawaii Open both offer $1000 to the winners in the mixed foil and mixed epee. But the Long Beach Invitational will give out approximately $150 to the winners (it's $600 to the winning team, consisting of 4 fencers).

The USFA should work on staging the events better. They run them in a very ordinary, plain way. The people running the tournaments have little knowledge in getting events moving, keeping things lively, and having things completed on schedule. Fencers (and referees) don't want to sit around for 45 minutes waiting to fence when they see five or ten free strips available, and have someone tell them, "It'll start. I don't know when..."

There has to be a head bout committee person who can move things along. USFA bout committee is made up of a bunch of parents. Dedicated folks, yes. But not experienced enough.

counter riposte · 10-04-2002, 06:42 PM

Darn... If international fencers are going to be there, I should have signed up. I just don't have the $40 to spend.

Purple Fencer · 10-04-2002, 07:18 PM

There are three that I know of besides the PR guys...Cedric Anen from Luxembourg, Jeffrey Chang from Hong Kong and Yann (don't remember the last name) from Belgium. They looked pretty strong inthe open foillast weekend (Jeff beat Yann for the gold. Cedric took 3rd, tyign with Grady Hutt, who should've beat Yann...15-14 and the scoring box conveniently became unplugged just as Grady was landing a parry-riposte. It definitely landed dead on. )

achilleus · 10-04-2002, 08:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by counter riposte
Darn... If international fencers are going to be there, I should have signed up. I just don't have the $40 to spend.

The LBI is very big this year. It just got me to thinking that Duel, the LBI are constantly growing, and the fencers are so happy to go and participate unlike NAC's.

I already have an opinion on what's wrong with NAC's, I was just curious what other people's opinion on the tournaments are.

veeco · 10-05-2002, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Purple Fencer
There are three that I know of besides the PR guys...Cedric Anen from Luxembourg, Jeffrey Chang from Hong Kong and Yann (don't remember the last name) from Belgium. They looked pretty strong inthe open foillast weekend (Jeff beat Yann for the gold. Cedric took 3rd, tyign with Grady Hutt, who should've beat Yann...15-14 and the scoring box conveniently became unplugged just as Grady was landing a parry-riposte. It definitely landed dead on. )

You forgot the one French epee guy from Stanford FC, Sam!

dreadfoil · 10-05-2002, 08:10 PM

i still can't understand, why can't you just have a competition and the winner get the standard traditional medal? it's just the appearance of things, you want things to look great for america, which is very sweet, however, the war isn't over yet, people still think it's over-lavish, and superficial. one of the things that creates conflict between nations is the appearance of abundance next to poverty. it's like what i learned in peace corps, we don't flaunt money to 3rd world nations, the cash prize thing is something i can't relate to.

135711 · 10-05-2002, 09:50 PM

i know i hurt your feelings about the prize money and i am sorry, but i still feel it's not something we should be involved in....i think it's very easy to delude ourselves into a sence that it's okay, it's just money, and since we don't need it, we can fence for it and it won't matter. i would like to see some people from the other side of the pond win a prize like that, and i think that was it's inspiration, to get the little guy in there as a contender, but the fact is the larger schools will always have the top competitors. and i have no idea why except they may have more people with whom to train.

edew · 10-07-2002, 02:03 PM

Having just returned from the LBI, I can certainly say that people are attending not just for the money. Of the 97 or so foil fencers in the open foil, only 4 really had any realistic chance of getting any prize money (regardless of how the prize money was to be awarded). The vast majority of the fencers were D's and lower.

I think one reason for the popularity among the D's and lower is that this is an event where they can compete against top-level fencers, and top-level fencers have an opportunity to use this event as a warm-up for the season.

I managed to warm up my *****ing and moaning on the strip for bad calls by the referee. I'm just about ready for national level B&M :-)

ReverseLunge · 10-07-2002, 02:07 PM

So how did you do EDEW? Did you get a chance to face any of the top guys?

edew · 10-07-2002, 05:54 PM

I finished ninth. I lost to Jerry Chang, the Hong Kong/USC guy. Chang's a decent fencer and has fairly good stuff. However, I felt I could have beaten him but for two main factors:

1) I didn't have a good feel for the floor: shoes were slipping on the floor in the East Gym (everyone has a wet rag next to the strip, but even that's not enough when your shoe's a bit worn out, like mine).

2) The refereeing. I was just livid. And others watching nearby were equally astounded at some of the calls. Basically, I was limited to a fully extended arm before commencing an attack. (But that didn't apply to the other person.) My parries were his beats, etc.

I was seeded second coming out of the pools, so I figured I'll be all right. Jerry didn't do as well as he should and was seeded 15th. Oh well.

Purple Fencer · 10-07-2002, 06:00 PM

As you yourself said at PCCs in Lost Wages...GO LEFT-HANDED ASIAN FENCERS!!

Miep · 10-07-2002, 06:12 PM

Actually, It's Jeffery Chang, the Arcadia High School guy. He's only 16. Yann Staelens is the USC guy.

Purple Fencer · 10-07-2002, 06:22 PM

Jeff Chang looked a WHOLE lost older than 16! Are you thinking of Trevor Chang?? Jeff wore a red lame and if left handed. Trevpr's taller and is a rightie.

Miep · 10-07-2002, 06:35 PM

Nope! Jeff trains at Fortune Fencing with Geoff Russell. I see him there all the time. Besides, Trevor is an epeeist who only plays at foil.......

DHCJr · 10-07-2002, 07:22 PM

I agree with the comments of EDEW. The lower fencers get to fence and see the better fencers. At the NAC's and Nationals they separate the haves from the have not. Even then, do our top fencers go to the NAC’s and the Nationals, when you receive a lot more points going to the World Cups? Did anyone notice none of our Women’s Sabre team was at the Division I Nationals? Check out who is fencing in Orlando. How many of our top juniors are not there? I suggested to Peter Westbrook, he should have gone to some of the Div II/III in Foil and Epee. He probably would have won both. Does anyone remember the time he substituted at the Olympic Festival in Foil and won every bout he fenced? How many of you would want to go, if you thought you might have a chance to fence a 6-time Olympian, even if it went 5-0?

Now how do you get the top ones to go? I’m afraid money is one of the best ways

I don't have a solution for the USFA. I'm only putting out questions.

Purple Fencer · 10-07-2002, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DHCJr

Now how do you get the top ones to go? I’m afraid money is one of the best ways

Beer? As long as it doesn't come from the armory table, that is!

135711 · 10-07-2002, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by edew
I finished ninth. I lost to Jerry Chang, the Hong Kong/USC guy. Chang's a decent fencer and has fairly good stuff. However, I felt I could have beaten him but for two main factors:

1) I didn't have a good feel for the floor: shoes were slipping on the floor in the East Gym (everyone has a wet rag next to the strip, but even that's not enough when your shoe's a bit worn out, like mine).

2) The refereeing. I was just livid. And others watching nearby were equally astounded at some of the calls. Basically, I was limited to a fully extended arm before commencing an attack. (But that didn't apply to the other person.) My parries were his beats, etc.

I was seeded second coming out of the pools, so I figured I'll be all right. Jerry didn't do as well as he should and was seeded 15th. Oh well.

It sounds like a real learning experience.....i usually hate referees because of their manners, not their calls, i've seldom had a bad call called against me, they're usually very good, it's all the grousing and burping. i'm sorry you had to show your fully extended arm, but, maybe this was your turn to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, as others have done.

edew · 10-07-2002, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Miep
Nope! Jeff trains at Fortune Fencing with Geoff Russell. I see him there all the time. Besides, Trevor is an epeeist who only plays at foil.......

I don't know Jerry that well at all. I do know that he did beat Cedric at a tournament a weekend prior to the LBI. I talked to Cedric and he said that he hadn't trained or anything since the Worlds, so he was a bit rusty at that tournament.

Still, I don't think Jerry is 16. Trevor looks 16. Jerry looks pretty much like an adult. Maybe 22. Or is it just left-handed asians that look older than they really are?

edew · 10-07-2002, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DHCJr
I agree with the comments of EDEW. The lower fencers get to fence and see the better fencers. At the NAC's and Nationals they separate the haves from the have not. Even then, do our top fencers go to the NAC’s and the Nationals, when you receive a lot more points going to the World Cups? Did anyone notice none of our Women’s Sabre team was at the Division I Nationals? Check out who is fencing in Orlando. How many of our top juniors are not there? I suggested to Peter Westbrook, he should have gone to some of the Div II/III in Foil and Epee. He probably would have won both. Does anyone remember the time he substituted at the Olympic Festival in Foil and won every bout he fenced? How many of you would want to go, if you thought you might have a chance to fence a 6-time Olympian, even if it went 5-0?

Now how do you get the top ones to go? I’m afraid money is one of the best ways

I don't have a solution for the USFA. I'm only putting out questions.

Donald, why would USFA need something like having Westbrook fence foil or epee. Attendance at Div II/III NACs are about as high as anyone can expect. Heck, I'll bet they're going to start dreaming up splitting the Div II/III into separate tournaments (and then ***** and moan about how much money they're losing at each event...)

The LBI has a reputation for holding well-run tournaments, and that snowballs into positive feedback: good tournament -> good fencers showing up -> more fencers show up -> better tournament organization.

They have eight grounded strips (well, as grounded as those strips can be...), sixteen full strips. Next year, I'm hoping Craig and company supply a full suite of (up-to-date) referees. I suggested that he pay the referees a bit more than the standard $40/day rate. Maybe $80 or even $100. Frank Van Dyke, section chair should spearhead that and get sectional events to have the best paid, most capable referees.