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Thread: Can Y10 fence Y14?

  1. #1
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    Can Y10 fence Y14?

    Can a Y10 fencer with National Y10/Y12 points fence Y14?

    Do the points have to be listed, e.g., if the points are from an SYC in early 2009 the points will not be listed til May 2009?

    Thank you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty Belgian View Post
    Can a Y10 fencer with National Y10/Y12 points fence Y14?

    Do the points have to be listed, e.g., if the points are from an SYC in early 2009 the points will not be listed til May 2009?

    Thank you.
    Two years ago when my youngest son was still a Y10 he was allowed to fence Y14 at the NAC F.

    This is the e-mail I sent to Corinne:


    If my son, ________ earned points in Y12ME at the Pasadena SYC
    may he fence Y14ME at the NAC F? He is currently a Y10.


    And this was her answer:

    Yes, if he earned points at an SYC this season, he would be eligible to fence Y14 at the April NAC.

    Corinne Greenman
    Director of Sport Technical Programs


    Just to be absolutely certain that the rules have not changed you could check with Courtney.
    " ... or spend fifty years learning to begin to learn to beat your adversary at fencing. After that you can start on mathematics, until it is time to learn to plough. White, T.H. The Once and Future King (emphasis added)

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    Quote Originally Posted by passata_sotto View Post
    Two years ago when my youngest son was still a Y10 he was allowed to fence Y14 at the NAC F.

    This is the e-mail I sent to Corinne:


    If my son, ________ earned points in Y12ME at the Pasadena SYC
    may he fence Y14ME at the NAC F? He is currently a Y10.


    And this was her answer:

    Yes, if he earned points at an SYC this season, he would be eligible to fence Y14 at the April NAC.

    Corinne Greenman

    Director of Sport Technical Programs


    Just to be absolutely certain that the rules have not changed you could check with Courtney.

    Thank you Passata (and Corinne, I guess).

    I had nothing so ambitious as competing 2 levels up in an SYC or NAC in mind . I would just like my son, a Y10MF, to get a taste of Y14MF at some local tournaments at the end of the fencing season.

    He has National Y12 Points from an SYC this season, from Pris de Fer in Wellesley this month, but I gather these won't show up until USFA re-sets the NPR in May.

    I will certainly check with Courtney.

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    Senior Member Lady Quindecim's Avatar
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    Especially in local events, I think there is no issue with Y fencing up in Y. (I was a Y12 with about a year and a half exp the first time I fenced in a open mixed epee Came in like 6th... of 9. But we had fun.) But when in doubt ask.

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    Senior Member oso97's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty Belgian View Post
    Can a Y10 fencer with National Y10/Y12 points fence Y14?
    Better question - why would a Y10 fencer fence Y14?
    That's it, I'm done with the discussion forums on F.net. It's had its uses, but the ideologues, ranters, and "experts" have drowned too many of the conversations. I'm changing my password to something random and never logging in again.

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    Senior Member Got_Fenced_In's Avatar
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    What oso said.

    Unless your son is either a) very, very talented, b) tall for his age, or c) knows EXACTLY what he's getting into, it may not be the best idea.

    Fencing up is pretty difficult for kids. I'm not saying he shouldn't, I'm just saying if he is just okay for his age or isn't prepared for all the rest of the boys to be much larger than him, it's a bad idea.


    "Speak softly and carry a big stick!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Got_Fenced_In View Post
    Fencing up is pretty difficult for kids. I'm not saying he shouldn't, I'm just saying if he is just okay for his age or isn't prepared for all the rest of the boys to be much larger than him, it's a bad idea.
    This is true. Fencing up is also very different by gender. Mens/Boys Y14s are on the puberty fast track, can hit pretty hard, etc...

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    MdA
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    Quote Originally Posted by oso97 View Post
    Better question - why would a Y10 fencer fence Y14?
    Unless he is in the top 4 of the current Y10 national point standings, he should not be fencing Y14....unless you intention is to turn him off to fencing....forever!

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    Senior Member TBean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty Belgian View Post
    I would just like my son, a Y10MF, to get a taste of Y14MF at some local tournaments at the end of the fencing season.
    Fencing up for boys is very different then fencing up for girls. Y14, those boys can be very big and not aware of their own strength. If you get a relative new-comer to the sport, even if your son is more experienced, it has the potential to be a rough experience.

    I'm a grown woman, and there are days I cringe fencing the 13 and 14 year-old boys who sometimes stay for open bouting. The experienced kids are not a problem, its the ones who have been fencing a short while that can inflict damage even though I am the much more experienced fencer. It would be much worse for someone who is smaller and weaker.

    Think carefully about this, really it could backfire.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lefty Belgian View Post
    Can a Y10 fencer with National Y10/Y12 points fence Y14?

    Do the points have to be listed, e.g., if the points are from an SYC in early 2009 the points will not be listed til May 2009?

    Thank you.
    Don't do it. Just wait till he's 11 -- it'll come soon enough. Taking up what MdA said, I wouldn't recommend it even if your kid is in the Top 4 Y10 NRPS. The only exceptions I can think of are:

    1) He's been routinely *winning* -- not just Top 8, but winning -- Y12 tourneys NAC's and SYC's. (Like Massialas and Bravo were doing 4 years ago.)

    2) He's good (has a rating at least), is tall/big for his age, and your local area really has a dearth of good Y10-Y12 fencers. (Like the case with PS's kid, I think.)

    Barring the above, it's probably not worth it. The 15-touch bouts are different, and they're more exhausting both physically and mentally. The Y14 kids are a lot stronger and sometimes he might be doing the right thing, but just doesn't have the strength to carry out the actions (like a parry)-- it'll just frustrate him. The kids are also a lot taller, so he'll be tempted to use a longer #5 blade. If you let him, it won't help when he goes back to the #2 blade in Y10; if you don't, it might mess up his mind always wondering if he could've fenced better with the longer blade. And yes, there's also the chance he could get hurt when fencing a newbie Y14 who doesn't know his strength and has no control.

    It's ok if they bout Y14-style bouts in the club, of course -- because there, it's under the guidance of a coach who'll frame it as part of a lesson. If you want him to fence Y14 "just for the experience" this is probably the best way to go about it.
    Last edited by lurkerdad; 04-03-2009 at 02:15 PM.

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    Senior Member TBean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lurkerdad View Post
    And yes, there's also the chance he could get hurt when fencing a newbie Y14 who doesn't know his strength and has no control.
    All excellent points that you made, but this one for me is not just about getting hurt and being out of fencing. It simply sucks if every touch just hurts because your opponent is bigger, stronger and out of control - then add frustrating, demoralizing and unappealing if you have no realistic way of stopping it. This type of behavior/fencing is much harder for a younger fencer to deal with as they lack the physical capacity to stop the larger opponent, and usually don't have the emotional maturity to just say "this guy is a ..."beginner," "jerk," whatever and shake the bout off.

    This idea has a lot of hazards and really is recipe for your kid to not have good-time.
    Last edited by TBean; 04-03-2009 at 04:34 PM.
    However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally take a look at the results. ~ Churchill
    I wonder if other dogs think poodles are members of a weird religious cult. ~ Rita Rudner

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    All of the above reasons as to why a Y10 fencer with Y12 points shouldn't fence up to Y14 are valid but if a fencer is born in 1998, on Aug. 1, they will be able to fence Y14.

    It really depends on the tournament. If it is a local Y14 event where the majority of fencers have 1997 birth years and most from the fencers own club, who he/she fences all the time, why not?

    If it is a national Y14 event with the majority of fencers born 1994 and highly experienced, it is probably a bad idea.

    Each situation is unique and therefore the decision should be made accordingly.

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    Much of it also depends on the fencer and their goals/personality. If they are doing well, and chomping at the bit to get some better competitive matches...let them try it and see what happens.

    If they are a bit more timid and not dominating their age bracket, some discretion may be called for. There is no blanket rule that will apply equally to all fencers.
    "Sometimes we, as coaches, get into that dictator mode where you just tell and you don't listen and you don't try to understand them." Tom Izzo, Mich. St.
    "Fraud is the creation of trust. And then: its betrayal."
    William Black, Ph.D.

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