unused moves?

[edew]

Originally posted by epeefencer74
Cool bananas Now I can go back at tell them that it is. How I used it was perhaps may be considered unorthordox. Basically it was a feint to the top of the arm to draw a circular sixte parry, which I immediatly decieved in to a passata sotto to the underarm. My opponent was in the habit of stepping back as he parried. I have never been trained to use it, just thought it would be cool to try and pull it off. Only got a couple of hits with it though. The suprise wore off pretty quickly.

The passata sotto isn't an offensive action. It's not even a "pro-active" action. It's a displacement of target, like an inquartata. For it (the inquartata or the passata sotto), you need the opponent to make an offensive action. Then, you displace your target and hope the momentum of the offensive action will carry the point past your body, while you keep your point towards the opponent's body.

If you're doing something that's drawing a parry, it would not be a good idea to include the passata sotto as the coda to that action. Either that, or you're still mistaking what a passata sotto is.

A passata sotto is nothing more than dropping your body (torso) down and parallel to the floor by reaching back with your rear leg, and putting your un-armed hand to the ground for balance. And, stick your armed hand out, hoping to spear a moving attacker who suddenly sees his target disappear from view.

If the "attacker" is trying to parry you, he's obviously not attacking, and in that case, you dropping down opening your back for punishment will most likely result in some severe punishment.

[thebigriddle]

The punto riverso, that is a very interesting technique.

[Psi Shadowdark]

what si that move exactly?

[Pierfrancesco]

Originally posted by thebigriddle
The punto riverso, that is a very interesting technique.

sounds like something you'd use when parking a Fiat..

[Psi Shadowdark]

hah

[angrylemur]

edew, i am curious as to how you set up your balestra lunges for them to work so well? I mean I use them pretty often but they have never worked quite as well as you've described, and if they have it wasn't for a good 7-8 touches.

thanks.

[135711]

guys, i've flacked out. i have to keep reading the fencing posts to keep in touch with the fencing community, but i haven't been fencing for several months. However, I will be back to fencing very shortly. I am also interested in the ballestra lunge, I used to use what is called a Patinando Lunge, which is slower than the ballestra lunge. I think that if you start there, and get that right, your ballestra will work later. Does anyone concur?

[Psi Shadowdark]

never heard

[dreadfoil]

Originally posted by epeefencer74
In one of my last post I mentioned that I haven't seen the Passato sotto in a while. So last night I decided to use it in a friendly bout in my club just for the heck of it. This generated a discussion on whether it was legal or not without a clear concensus. Can anyone help?

Patinando:[my spelling is incorrect most likely] is a step-lunge, not a stomp lunge as is the ballestra. so you step small, and quickly, then go instantly into a lunge without pausing.

[dreadfoil]

I might add:

The footwork for a patinando is important. Something that I have noticed in salles latetly is that fencers tend to walk flatfooted, or rather, they step flatfooted. I like stepping forward on the heel, then place the foot down, so it's :
heel - down with the rest of the foot
heel - down with the rest of the foot
the toe points upward, slightly. You don't want your opponent to see your footwork, and it also speeds you up slightly. The ballestra is more Toe downward into a slap and lunge so that the ball of your foot smacks on the piste or strip, sharply, then when your opponent reacts, you lunge.

[dreadfoil]

Originally posted by epeefencer74
In one of my last post I mentioned that I haven't seen the Passato sotto in a while. So last night I decided to use it in a friendly bout in my club just for the heck of it. This generated a discussion on whether it was legal or not without a clear concensus. Can anyone help?

I don't think anyone can do this very well anymore, because your hand, in classical fencing, would come down on the piste or strip. the problem with this move and why fencers have practically abandoned it, is it's difficultly. You have to be able to move downward onto the piste rapidly, very quickly you can lumber down there and hang out, and the directors are not familiar with it and tend to vote against it as it can lead to covering the target, so to execute it you have to be precise. I think only those very thin italian fencers can produce it without much controvery.

[edew]

Originally posted by dreadfoil
I don't think anyone can do this very well anymore, because your hand, in classical fencing, would come down on the piste or strip. the problem with this move and why fencers have practically abandoned it, is it's difficultly. You have to be able to move downward onto the piste rapidly, very quickly you can lumber down there and hang out, and the directors are not familiar with it and tend to vote against it as it can lead to covering the target, so to execute it you have to be precise. I think only those very thin italian fencers can produce it without much controvery.

Excuse me, but I think most top-level fencers are athletic enough to be able to drop down flat, if needed. If you see some fencing pictures (especially those posted by Hans Rupp on the German websites), you see some pretty amazing contortions. Fencers can, at the moment of exertion, literally lean over backwards. (People tell me when I'm fencing, I hit my infighting shots with my back almost parallel to the ground. I certainly don't feel that, and if asked to do it outside the context of fencing, I'll just flop down on my back.)

Also, most referees can tell the difference between a legitimate move and covering target using the head.

The reason it's not frequently used now is because it is not very effective.

[fencingguy]

Edew,

Since noone else has responded to your earlier comment about an advance lunge being out of date, or at least ineffective in epee, I need to disagree with you. If anything it is the balestra that is very rarely used in modern epee. Although certain bouncy fencers, myself included may appear to be using it occaisionally I think the advance lunge is by far the more common, and probably, faster of the two.

BTW a prime riposte is a riposte from the prime position. The hand stays turned over and high while the point swings out towards the opponent, hopefully making contact somewhere on their body.

[edew]

Originally posted by fencingguy
Edew,

Since noone else has responded to your earlier comment about an advance lunge being out of date, or at least ineffective in epee, I need to disagree with you. If anything it is the balestra that is very rarely used in modern epee. Although certain bouncy fencers, myself included may appear to be using it occaisionally I think the advance lunge is by far the more common, and probably, faster of the two.

BTW a prime riposte is a riposte from the prime position. The hand stays turned over and high while the point swings out towards the opponent, hopefully making contact somewhere on their body.

I don't think I would have ever said that the advance-lunge is out of date. Almost everyone uses it. Indeed, I doubt there are any who would use the "plain vanilla" lunge as opposed to the advance-lunge.

Still, the ballestra is far more powerful and faster than the advance-lunge. Watch some of the world championships/Olympics tapes. You'll see fencers like Flessel-Colovic make the jump-jump-jump-ballestra and nail the opponent on the thigh before anyone's the wiser.

Advance-lunge, especially in foil, does not utilize the speed so much as using the rules to allow the advance-lunge to be considered a simple one-tempo action, thus allowing for a slow advance, putting the opponent at an indecisive state (should I attack or should I retreat?), while gaining some distance, and then following through with a quick lunge for the kill.

Sabre fencers use advance-lunge with an extremely slow advance, at times (check out Gourdain's advance lunge, for example).

[Jason]

Originally posted by dreadfoil
Patinando:[my spelling is incorrect most likely] is a step-lunge, not a stomp lunge as is the ballestra. so you step small, and quickly, then go instantly into a lunge without pausing.

Actually, what makes a patinando different from just a "regular ol' step-lunge" is that it starts with the front foot going forward very slowly, then the back foot comes in quickly and then you lunge (all as one, continous, fliud movement).
It is the particular rhythm of the patinando that distinguishes it from other step-lunges.

[135711]

Originally posted by edew
Excuse me, but I think most top-level fencers are athletic enough to be able to drop down flat, if needed. If you see some fencing pictures (especially those posted by Hans Rupp on the German websites), you see some pretty amazing contortions. Fencers can, at the moment of exertion, literally lean over backwards. (People tell me when I'm fencing, I hit my infighting shots with my back almost parallel to the ground. I certainly don't feel that, and if asked to do it outside the context of fencing, I'll just flop down on my back.)

Also, most referees can tell the difference between a legitimate move and covering target using the head.

The reason it's not frequently used now is because it is not very effective.

It is pretty amazing the contortions that is; however, because of it's difficulty it's almost a passe de sotto.