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geronimojox · 10-02-2002, 07:17 PM

at a recent copetition i attended i was witness to the most disgusting and absolutey unnecessary behaviour i have ever seen in my fencing career so far. this display of extreme behaviour was given by a fencer who definetly knows better and understands the rules and ettiquete of fencing. he is in the south african fencing team and he has been to numerous a grade competitions and several world champs. i am sure he does not behave in this way when he is fencing at those competitions.

when fencing about 7 points into the bout a decision was made after a phrase to which he throws off his mask and yells oh !@#$
come on please and then argues with the referee calls him biassed in not so many words.

he then proceeds to get 2 red cards and doesnt shake the fencers hand at the end of the bout telling him that the referee gave him 5 points. i was shocked and felt very disappointed.

he has broken a tradition of centuries of harmonious conflict and has disgraced himself and the sport. i will endeavour now with even more resolve always to be a good sportsman to win gracefully and when i do lose not to act like a pig. remeber everyone who fences carries on a tradition of honour and respest to your opponent. this may seem old fashioned but it works and i will never forget it.

veeco · 10-02-2002, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by geronimojox
when fencing about 7 points into the bout a decision was made after a phrase to which he throws off his mask

--> black card

Quote:

and yells oh !@#$
come on please and then argues with the referee calls him biassed in not so many words.

--> black card

Quote:

he then proceeds to get 2 red cards and doesnt shake the fencers hand at the end of the bout

--> black card

Quote:

he has broken a tradition of centuries of harmonious conflict and has disgraced himself and the sport. i will endeavour now with even more resolve always to be a good sportsman to win gracefully and when i do lose not to act like a pig. remeber everyone who fences carries on a tradition of honour and respest to your opponent. this may seem old fashioned but it works and i will never forget it.

Why was the ref so lenient with this guy? From your description of the event, this guy should have received 3 black cards. That would have seriously hindered his chances at making the national team this year. It would have given him some week-ends of free time to think about his behavior. And then the next time he would have been able to enter a competition he might have been a little more civil.

Why are refs so lenient with this kind of behavior I don't know. I can excuse the occasional curse, if it's not directed at anyone else in particular, or the occasional display of anger, but not shaking the opponents hand typically received and has always been received a black card.

It seems like when you are high up there in the rankings that kind of is excused and that's a bad message to send to the other (and younger) fencers.

135711 · 10-02-2002, 07:48 PM

is this story really true? can anyone collaborate? if so, i'm amazed. consider that i arrive at the piste on time, and because i forgot to wear an underarm protector for epee, which is not my first weapon, i was screamed at by someone who sounds a lot like our south african 'friend'. sorry, but it was really uncalled for,one merely needs to make a statement.

epeemike81 · 10-02-2002, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 135711
is this story really true? can anyone collaborate? if so, i'm amazed. consider that i arrive at the piste on time, and because i forgot to wear an underarm protector for epee, which is not my first weapon, i was screamed at by someone who sounds a lot like our south african 'friend'. sorry, but it was really uncalled for,one merely needs to make a statement.

Sounded like our South African friend? they yelled at you for violating the centuries old tradition of wearing a plastron?????

I must thank you, Mango, as these tangents are always SO interesting.

-m

Mo · 10-02-2002, 10:51 PM

At last Summer Nats (greenville) I wandered into the Final's Room and got to see the gold medal bout for first place between the Fencer's Club and OFA.
The guys from the Fencer's Club displayed disgraceful sportsmanship. All their celebrating and hollering and in your face rudeness was just appalling to watch. OFA was also yelling but the tone of it was a lot different than that displayed by the FC.
It would be so nice if carding for delay of bout was called (which is what all the celebrating and screaming between points actually is.)
I've seen kids fencing their guts out too with(fencer #1) having little or no support while the other fencer in the bout (#2) has a huge group of teammates screaming their heads off for them. This type of cheering is used for distraction and is grossly unfair verging on cheating. It happens with kids as young as the Ten and Under age groups.
Fencing is not a sport of "gentlemen," not even close. It is a sport like any other.
Good sportsmanship and gracious behavior can be seen and just plain sickening behavior can be seen with all the degrees in between. In a perfect world this would not be so, but we all know it isn't.

epeemike81 · 10-03-2002, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mo
It would be so nice if carding for delay of bout was called (which is what all the celebrating and screaming between points actually is.)

Delay of bout???? wow, that is some LONG screaming.

Quote:

I've seen kids fencing their guts out too with(fencer #1) having little or no support while the other fencer in the bout (#2) has a huge group of teammates screaming their heads off for them. This type of cheering is used for distraction and is grossly unfair verging on cheating.

Ya know, when I see one kid well supported, and the other not, I do indeed feel bad for the kid who's not. However, I don't blame the clubmates of the one who is! It is fencer 1's parents/friends/clubmates fault for not supporting him/her. You want fencer 2's club to yank the support from their fencer just because there isn't anybody cheering for the opponent???

-m

Catlady · 10-03-2002, 01:31 AM

Ger, if I may call you that, yeah that guy was completely out of line. He should know better and do better. And I'm assuming this guy won too, right? Even worse. It's bad enough to throw a tantrum when the bout's on the line, but arguing over points when it's a bout you've pretty much got in the bag, it's really inexcusable.
I'd have black-carded him too. The one sure way to tick me off, whether the situation is fencing related or not, is to cop an attitude. As a matter of fact--and I'm saying this not knowing how much leeway a director can have in this situation--I would have been strongly recommending that he not be allowed in quite a few subsequent competitions either.

I will say, I'm lenient sometimes when directing practice bouts. The truth is I want to card people then as well, but even though technically the director is always THE authority, in those kind of situations I don't really feel I have the protection to do it without starting a war, especially since I'm still somewhat of the low person on the totem pole among the regular crowd. Still in competition when you really do have the authority, there is now excuse for not doing your job, as far as I'm concerned.
And another thing, forget the referee giving the opponent five points, HE gave his opponent two points--via the red cards-- which is worse.

On the other hand, misbehavior often becomes its own punishment. My temper tends to be a bit close to the surface, on and off strip, admittedly and I've ocassionally seen people have a total meltdown, even people who are usually calm, and everyone has their days, not that it excuses anything of course, but if you lose it too often, you start to get a reputation no matter how good you are.

The role model thing is one reason why I've tried to be in better control on strip. I'm not that good, however there aren't a lot of active female fencers around my club right now, and I realized that the junior girls may in fact be looking up to me, though I can't imagine why, so like I said, I decided I'd better shape up.

Now to address the cheering thing. It's hard to know what to do. I usually try to only cheer, or comment between actions, but lately I have cheered for teammates. I admit I even cheered for one teammate over another. It was sort of a wierd situation, but the fencer who I was cheering for had just lost her last bout and was feeling pretty upset from what I could see, so I figured she needed the encouragement at the moment. But, I guess I can seen where excessive cheering could be distracting. I do have to second the shame-on the clubmates/friends/ etc. of the fencer who wasn't being cheered for. If nothing else, if someone from your club is fencing, you should at least be near the strip to show your support. Well as near as possible without getting in the way-- I know from experience how hard it is to direct, even in an informal situation when you have to keep track of the action, while simultaneously trying not to step on anyone/thing.

Mo · 10-03-2002, 03:51 AM

"But, I guess I can seen where excessive cheering could be distracting. I do have to second the shame-on the clubmates/friends/ etc. of the fencer who wasn't being cheered for."

Let's define cheering. To applaud uphold, support and encourage DEFINITELY!!!
The thing I am talking about, to bazoo, bird, boo, catcall, hiss, hoot, pooh, pooh-pooh, razz and jeer.
It depends on the spirit in which the cheering is directed.
Should a fencing match be a cheering/jeering contest between the teammates of the two fencers?
Even if there are a lot of fencers watchin, screaming and yelling can be very disruptive and overwhelming to young fencers. Is it really necessary??
Good natured support is one thing, excessive noise is another.
What is the motivation?? To uphold and support your team member?? Good then do that. If the motivation is to help your teammate win by creating a distraction....or hurting the feelings of the other fencer. That is what I am speaking of.

Cyranox11 · 10-03-2002, 05:39 AM

Hi geronimojox
Welcome to the board, good to have nog a Seffrican, erm, on board, so to speak.

Referees in SA are lenient because of the nature of comps in SA. We all know each other, most of us are if not friends, then we are generally on friendly terms. And, referees do not have an aura of authority partly because they dont project themselves as authority figures and partly because we know them primarily as fellow fencers and/or friends. I am also of the opinion that many refs (excluding the one who was reffing this bout) are of a poor quality. They dont all know the rules sufficiently well and dont act with sufficient authority. This results in some bad reffing across the board and a culture of leniency which some fencers quickly learn to exploit. All SA fencers should do more to improve the quality of refereeing

A further complicating factor imho is that few fencers are out there to win at all costs and then when some-one comes along with a super competitve attitude no-one knows how to deal with this person and his or her behaviour can deterioate as he gets away with more and more 'desperate' stuff.

I (un)fortunately did not see the incident (I had already left by this time, having made an embarrasingly early exit), but was it really that bad? The stories that I have heard suggest that it was bad, but I have not heard anything about a refusal to shake hands!

We should all be as competitive as possible, but we should also respect ourselves and our opponents; whilst having confidence in all our referees, that they will make correct and fair decisions to the best of their abilities at all times. I believe that this incident shows that SA refs should be a bit stricter from the outset, dish out cards whenever they are justified and/or necessary and pretty soon, things will improve.

Later

Cyr

Spanky · 10-03-2002, 06:48 AM

bad attitude is not confined to the piste. i was witness to an absurd turn of events at the last tourney i entered.

twas a semi-final mf bout. both very able and determined competitors, closely matched in skill and physical abitlity, so the points where just about evenly distributed. towards the close, the ref makes a 50-50 call. fencer a's coach (and the coach of the israeli national foil squad), jumps in to dispute the call. fencers a and b had questioned the call, the ref. dismissed both, but the coach continues. after about a minute or so of argument the ref has had enough of the coach and gives him a warning, still the coach argues. the comes a yellow card, still the coach argues, and then a red. the coach simply increases the volume of his protestations. finally, the ref was thoroughly fed up and dished out a black card. undetered the coach hollers louder. this descends to the playground level of 'who do u think u are!', which is (apropriately) answered by 'who do U think u are!!'...and i swear they went on like that for a full 2 minutes, no change in words, just more volume and acerbic nuance.
now persoanlly, i noticed the coach was carrying a fire-arm, so when the balck card was issued, i watched proceedings from the *back* of the hall.

it ended with security escourting the coach out of the hall, but he back in after the bout, spitting fire and all.

fencer a lost; fencer b, won the gold.

Catal · 10-03-2002, 08:51 AM

> The guys from the Fencer's Club displayed disgraceful
> sportsmanship. All their celebrating and hollering and in your
> face rudeness was just appalling to watch.

I didn't know the arrogance was so prevalant at Fencer's Club. A couple years ago, I had the misfortune of fencing one of their better epee fencers in a DE. By the fifth touch against me, it was obvious that I was going to lose; which I did 15-3. But, throughout the entire match, the other fencer was making the a-typical macho victory "yeah!" after every touch, as was his father...

I can't begin to express how rude such behaviour is... so, I'll just sit here an' ruminate.

MHS Fencer · 10-03-2002, 08:34 PM

Sigh, people aren't allowed to celebrate anymore I guess. While I'm never happy with people cursing or throwing equipment, all of us let a word slip out sometimes, but not driected at people - just a quiet, or abbreviated word, depending on the circumstance. It's by no means intentional though.

Now, as per those complaining about the celebrating, or yelling "yeah" after a touch, the former can be carried out to an extreme (if it does result in a delay of bout, or is intentionally directed at the opponent in a derogatory manner - yelling in his face, etc.), but the latter should be encouraged. People need to get into events and feel psyched up, even if they may seem to have a bout wrapped up. So long as people aren't personally attacking you or doing anything obscene, or delaying the bout excessively, let them be happy and show emotion so that we aren't just stiffs in white suits.

veeco · 10-03-2002, 08:40 PM

Derogatory cheering falls under the "disturbing order on the strip" legislation, not under the "delay of the bout" legislation.

You can't blame a fencer for his teammates' attitude.

nahouw · 10-03-2002, 09:11 PM

In regards to the referee that had the problem with the coach, why did he give a yellow card first? That is not in the rules -- in accordance with the rules, any person disturbing order on the strip gets a red card, and since it is a third group penalty, it has to be registered with the bout committee -- third group penalties apply to the whole competition and not just the bout in question. The referee should have given the coach a red card, and then informed the bout committee, who would have instructed the coach to sit in an area far from the strip. Upon the coach's second infraction, he should have then been black carded and expulled from the venue. The bout committee, who should have been aware of the first red card, would be the ones to manage his expulsion from the venue, so that the referee could continue with maintaining order on his strip and the smooth running of the competition. The referee is at fault for wrong carding, but also, who was on the bout committee, and why weren't they watching this and aware of this?

We once had a similar situation. The referee red carded the coach in question. The coach refused to listen to the referee's instructions to go sit in the bleachers. The referee stopped the bout and came to the bout committee to explain the situation. The bout committee member came over and asked the coach to go sit in the bleachers for the remaining of the bout. The coach refused to leave the strip and continued. The bout committee member black carded the coach and escorted the coach out of the venue, and then the bout resumed. The coach was also fencing in another event, which he was also black carded from.

swordsen · 10-03-2002, 10:09 PM

Hmmm fussing about spectators cheering..... Nope, if we want the sport to be spectator friendly it needs cheering. and yes, the occasional razzing too.
Personally, I have always found a big cheering section for my opponent to be good for me. I am very motivated to shut them up. Same thing for an obnoxious coach.

Catal · 10-03-2002, 10:14 PM

> Now, as per those complaining about the celebrating, or
> yelling "yeah" after a touch, the former can be carried out to an
> extreme (if it does result in a delay of bout, or is intentionally
> directed at the opponent in a derogatory manner - yelling in his
> face, etc.), but the latter should be encouraged. People need to
> get into events and feel psyched up, even if they may seem to
> have a bout wrapped up. So long as people aren't personally
> attacking you or doing anything obscene, or delaying the bout
> excessively, let them be happy and show emotion so that we
> aren't just stiffs in white suits.

I see what you're saying, MHS, I don't mind people who are happy to get a point against me, especially if the match is close and they pull off an amazing touch. However, I was more or less an ant to this guy who kicked me around the piste. Cheering about crushing an opponent who has no chance against you is self-gratifying and sadistic.

> Hmmm fussing about spectators cheering..... Nope, if we want
> the sport to be spectator friendly it needs cheering.

Yes, let's all cheer on an A fencer for slaughtering a U. Hoo-ah! Yeah! That was a tough match, let's support our fencer cause you know how much trouble those U's can be. We wouldn't want our A's ego to get bruised.

Cheering is not the problem, unneccesary, gratuitous ego stroking is. Maybe, I'm just a prude, but when I annhilate someone 15-5 or worse, I give 'em a nice smile, a pat on the shoulder and if he/she doesn't walk off sulking about their defeat, I offer 'em some helpful advise. That way, there are no hard feelings, the level of play is raised for the next competition, and maybe I'll make a friend. It's called sportsmanship, and there isn't enough of it.

135711 · 10-04-2002, 12:42 AM

i think you're all looking for that model citizen. with respect to noise levels, in the not too distant past, i have noticed that some spectators will become over enthusiastic while watching their spouces or good friends fence, it can be difficult for a person who is fencing on their own. some spouces have demonstrated poor behavior, it's their maturity level. in the past, during competitions, i can remember fencing some very good fencers from antother state whose friends did alot of cheering,but it didn't help her munch. i don't think anyone has behaved partaicularly great. but aren't directors supposed to control all of this activity?

achilleus · 10-04-2002, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Catal
Cheering is not the problem, unneccesary, gratuitous ego stroking is. Maybe, I'm just a prude, but when I annhilate someone 15-5 or worse, I give 'em a nice smile, a pat on the shoulder and if he/she doesn't walk off sulking about their defeat, I offer 'em some helpful advise. That way, there are no hard feelings, the level of play is raised for the next competition, and maybe I'll make a friend. It's called sportsmanship, and there isn't enough of it.

Why should there be any hard feelings? It sounds like your opponent came to the strip and gave you his all.

I wasn't there, so I don't really know if he crossed the line or not,
but I do know that the guys in NY come to compete. After all, tournaments are not about making friends.

Catal · 10-04-2002, 08:42 AM

> Why should there be any hard feelings? It sounds like your
> opponent came to the strip and gave you his all.

You should have seen it, the guy was awesome. I mean, he truly handed my *** to me in a handbasket. I guess I haven't been clarifying my position well- it's not the loss that bothers me, that's part of the game. My contention is that when every touch is followed by an estatic victory yell, and the score is now 12-1, a line has been crossed. I've lost, badly, to strong fencers before, but after the fifth unanswered touch, and it's a forgone conclusion that they'll win, they stop making noise- as do their entourage (usually).

> After all, tournaments are not about making friends.

True, true... That's just me.

JEC · 10-04-2002, 09:46 AM

uhm... expecting sportsmanship from opponents.