Fencing @Di$ney

[veeco]

Originally posted by epeemike81
Again, I state that it seems the USFA can't win with this crowd. let me disuade you all of one theory right now: THERE IS NO PERFECT VENUE. One has possibility of snow, another hurricanes, one is in the middle of nowhere, another too expensive.... I tend to take the view that the USFA is doing the best they can, rather than complaining about every nitpicky detail I can find with every NAC. the snow comment was designed to point out that this is what you SAID you wanted (a southern NAC), but you are STILL not satisfied.

As for the weapon thing, its not that I think those kinds of jokes don't have a place on the board. they certainly do. Its that I don't see the need to bring conversations about serious issues (unless you don't consider your issue serious) down to that level.

-m

I have no problem with the USFA. I think that they are doing a great work. I complained about the fact that money was being spent on fencing and that in the end, Disney was benefiting from it. I have not seen Disney sponsor or help fencing in anyway, and I don't understand why fencers or spectators should be giving their money to Disney. And they are giving that money with no direct ROI, because it seems to me like this NAC will be just like the others (that is a bunch of strips all jammed together with no order at all, no scoring display). As a competitor, I don't care. As a competitor, I won't even have to shell out the 9 bucks.
On the other hand, as a spectator, I would not appreciate that. Making people pay for an event gives the impression that they are going to watch some sort of stage spectacle. When you pay your 18 bucks to go and watch a ball game, you are going to watch a staged performance, where there will be announcers, referees, or a scoring display. You will be able to actually follow the action. In a NAC you can't follow the action. Unless you can clone yourself and process the information of about a dozen bouts at once, while keeping an eye on the lousy sheets of paper taped to the walls of the venue where they have the pools/de table.
Add to that the confusion of a newcomer to the sport, the fact that they have to understand that the guys fencing sabre in the front are not competing in the same event as the guys fencing foil on the left, which is not the same event as the epee on the right, and you have a poor spectator experience. That's all I'm saying.

You go back to movies because it's an accepted and popular form of entertainment. You and everybody else knows that there are good movies and bad movies. Watching fencing isn't a popular form of entertainment. People who pay to watch fencing (and haven't done so before) will most likely assume that it's the way it is usually. Unless they are of the curious type. If we want fencing to move out of this elitist model, and draw crowds to the big fencing events, we need to bring in and keep interested not only the curious type, but the sceptic types as well.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by veeco
You go back to movies because it's an accepted and popular form of entertainment. You and everybody else knows that there are good movies and bad movies. Watching fencing isn't a popular form of entertainment. People who pay to watch fencing (and haven't done so before) will most likely assume that it's the way it is usually. Unless they are of the curious type. If we want fencing to move out of this elitist model, and draw crowds to the big fencing events, we need to bring in and keep interested not only the curious type, but the sceptic types as well.

Note what AFC Fencer said: the fee is for is entry into the sports complex. i.e., they WON'T be paying it for fencing, but for everything. so, they won't be likely to associate it as a fee for watching fencing, unless that is the only reason they are there (like relatives). However, relatives are generally not going to be turned off on fencing just because of that. once they (patrons of the sports complex who AREN'T relatives) are there, if we are lucky, they might take advantage and watch some fencing.

-m

[oiuyt]

This venue is anything but cheap. The rooms are 120 bucks a night.

Uhm, that's not venue cost (which is paid by the USFA), that's lodging cost (paid for by the fencers). While the USFA CLAIMS to include such things as lodging cost in the considerations, they definately DO include venue cost as mentioned by epeemike.

Historically the USFA loses money on NACs early in the year and makes money on NACS later in the year. While this generally balances out (mostly) for the year as a whole, the USFA has decided that they want each individual NAC to not lose money. Hence the raised entry fees. The October NAC is the biggest money loser that the USFA does, there isn't excess money being squirreled away that could be spent on super slo-mo replays of the finals or huge scoreboards.

It'll be interesting to see how the mechanics of getting people into the venue will be. As a fencer you have your confirmation for the day. Coaches get credentialed at check-in. Presumably check-in is in the venue. The venue is in the complex. Presumably the ticket takers are on the outside of the complex. Anyone else see a conflict? Question 2: who defines who's a coach?

-B :)

[Mo]

Just out of curiosity:

We've been going to NACs for several years, and this is the first we've seen where the venue charges admission for spectators.

Has this been an accepted practice at other venues over the years, or is this unique to Disney?

A couple of thoughts for epeemike:
No system is perfect...almost anything about the NAC/USFA event system can benefit from tweaking from time to time. That's why a forum like this exists...to exchange ideas and likes/dislikes, and just maybe come up with some concepts that can make this sport better over time. To dismiss these exchanges of experiences and concerns as baseless carping defeats much of the good that can happen here.

I don't know if you have kids fencing, but we do, and have a hard time dismissing the effects of winter time transportation as cavalierly as you. Saratoga as a case in point: an upstate NY event in January requiring a 40 mile drive over the hills from the nearest major airport is a major concern for us. Last year, it wasn't too slick, except for the 8 hour airport delay for the team because of snow. This year, who knows? (and by the way, I've spent the last 20 year driving in mountain snows, so it's not a new experience for which I have any abnormal apprehension). I think the point was that Saratoga as an NAC venue makes much more sense in April than January, and I don't mind mentioning that to any USFA ears I can find.

But as I say, that's the point of this board...trying to find some solutions to our common concerns.

Mr. Mo

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Mo
Just out of curiosity:

We've been going to NACs for several years, and this is the first we've seen where the venue charges admission for spectators.

Again, it is not a charge to get into the venue. The venue sits in a complex which disney ALWAYS charges admission to. Say we were fencing in EPCOT. would you expect Disney to let everybody in free if they said they were going to watch fencing? If you said no to this, then why do you expect them to waive their entry fees to the sports complex for spectators?

A couple of thoughts for epeemike:
No system is perfect...almost anything about the NAC/USFA event system can benefit from tweaking from time to time. That's why a forum like this exists...to exchange ideas and likes/dislikes, and just maybe come up with some concepts that can make this sport better over time. To dismiss these exchanges of experiences and concerns as baseless carping defeats much of the good that can happen here.

My major issue is not with complaints as a whole. My issue is that you and a select other few complain about ALL the possibilities. Complaints lose their value if you are NEVER pleased (or at least accepting).

I don't know if you have kids fencing, but we do, and have a hard time dismissing the effects of winter time transportation as cavalierly as you. Saratoga as a case in point: an upstate NY event in January requiring a 40 mile drive over the hills from the nearest major airport is a major concern for us. Last year, it wasn't too slick, except for the 8 hour airport delay for the team because of snow. This year, who knows? (and by the way, I've spent the last 20 year driving in mountain snows, so it's not a new experience for which I have any abnormal apprehension). I think the point was that Saratoga as an NAC venue makes much more sense in April than January, and I don't mind mentioning that to any USFA ears I can find.

Yes, Saratoga makes much more sense as a venue for ANYTHING in April than in January. That is why it COSTS MORE in April than January. again, I point out that USFA frequently gets venues for free because they are willing to take Saratoga in winter, or Austin in Summer. THAT is what is keeping the costs as low as they are, even with the increase.

-m

[Inquartata]

Well, I thought that the "you're half right" comment was funny, Mike. Nothing wrong with banter in my book. YMMV.

As for venues, there are good ones out there. Naturally, perfection is a will-o-the-wisp, but some of the trade-offs are worse than others. I mentioned Palm Springs last night, IMO that's been one of the better venues. Sandy, Utah wasn't bad, either, albeit a bit remote. ( I'm not familiar with ones east of the Mississippi. )

Given the enormous draw of Disney in that part of Florida I would think that other suitable venues in the area would be begging for bookings and could be had reasonably. But I'm only guessing.

Entry fees went up what? 30% this year? Did the USFA's expenses really go up anywhere near that much, given inflation of under 5% the last few years? ( Actually I suspect the hike was meant at least partly to cover the drop in entries they're going to experience, what with C-and-above Div I cutoffs and such, but it may still not be enough. )

I'll reserve final judgement until after the Orlando NAC, but my cynical "spidey-sense" is tingling. I suspect that the drawbacks I'm reading about are going to outweigh any advantages...

[afc fencer]

Coaches get credentialed at check-in. Presumably check-in is in the venue. The venue is in the complex. Presumably the ticket takers are on the outside of the complex. Anyone else see a conflict? Question 2: who defines who's a coach?

When i went to check in it was outside the sports complex. As for the coach thing my coach already had his pass so we filled out a form and said my dad was the assistant coach.

This venue is anything but cheap. The rooms are 120 bucks a night.

If you stay in kissimie(sp?) you can get rooms for 30-40 bucks a night. Of coure you have to rent a car but it would probaly save you some money.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Inquartata
Given the enormous draw of Disney in that part of Florida I would think that other suitable venues in the area would be begging for bookings and could be had reasonably. But I'm only guessing.

Actually, quite the opposite. For example, my uncle is a hospital administrator, and frequently goes to conferences. they are ALWAYS held in Orlando, Hawaii, or Las Vegas. Organizations which CAN afford expensive venues frequently choose cities specifically because of the other attractions in them.

Entry fees went up what? 30% this year? Did the USFA's expenses really go up anywhere near that much, given inflation of under 5% the last few years? ( Actually I suspect the hike was meant at least partly to cover the drop in entries they're going to experience, what with C-and-above Div I cutoffs and such, but it may still not be enough. )

I refer you to oiuyt's post concerning the fact that the USFA was LOSING money on the October NAC and making money on later NACs traditionally, and wanted each NAC to be self sufficient. thus the increase.

I'll reserve final judgement until after the Orlando NAC, but my cynical "spidey-sense" is tingling. I suspect that the drawbacks I'm reading about are going to outweigh any advantages...

again, that just depends on priorities. I personally would rather a winter NAC in Saratoga at any time. However, if climate and attractions are important in picking a venue, then this should please you.

-m

[edew]

Originally posted by epeemike81
[...]
Price for a full day of spectating: $9.75

Price for a 2 hour movie: $8.75
Price for a three hour baseball game: $18 (cheapest seats)

[...]
-m

Cheap hooker near Disneyworld: $5.00
Realizing that hooker is Janet Reno going for a recount: Priceless

MasterCard. Everywhere you want to be...

[sallearmourer]

Do to Disney chargeing the vendors a 35% fee for selling on there Sport Complex .


I have to rasie my price by 35% to cover the Disney Tax. Look if I break even at a NAC I am Happy. But with this 35% I wont break even. Please bear with me on the price hike.


Tim Loomis

Ye Olde Armourer

[edew]

35% is usurous. That's extortion. Better you don't go, ***** to USFA, have them ***** to Disney, and have Disney relent. You are providing a service to fencers that Disney themselves cannot provide. They should be paying YOU (and other armorers and vendors) to be there, not the other way around.

Oh well, the Disney hegemony, and the USFA's cowering to the powerful.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by edew
They should be paying YOU (and other armorers and vendors) to be there, not the other way around.

Eric, I think you should go take those econ courses again. hey, I got an idea.... the clothing store in the local mall is providing a service that the owner of the mall can't. the owner of the mall should be paying them. Rent for retail space is, obviously, very common. taking that rent in the form of percentage of profits is ALSO very common. As for the rate, 35% does seem a bit high to me, but as I don't have experience with rents paid by retailers, I can't really comment on it.

-m

[sallearmourer]

Update Update one for the USFA they told Disney that I provide a important service to them. No 35% fee for Disney. No price hike from the Nats price.

See you all there




Tim

Ye Olde Armourer

[Inquartata]

Disney relinquished its grasp on a dollar? Quick, someone check the weather report for Hell!

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Inquartata
Disney relinquished its grasp on a dollar? Quick, someone check the weather report for Hell!

right, because 35% of all sales at a NAC is SO much money... It is a drop in the bucket, and having the USFA come back again later is more important. They only relinquished their grasp on a dollar to protect the twenty in their back pocket.

-m

[Psi Shadowdark]

dark with a 95% chance of flaming rain and unseasonally hot =)

[Mo]

[...]
Price for a full day of spectating: $9.75

Price for a 2 hour movie: $8.75
Price for a three hour baseball game: $18 (cheapest seats)

[...]
-m


These prices are for watching things where you are purely a spectator and have NOT already paid for.
You are paying to see professional athletes doing their job. Fencers are not professional athletes paid between 100,000s of thousands to multi million dollars a year. Movie prices are for actors who make film for a business who are paid even more.

<<<$60 for Lower Box and Infield Roof Box
$200 for dugout box (the front two rows of infield lower box)
however, even with $8 tickets, the point still applies: $8 for 3 hours vs. 9.75 for ~8 hours. clearly, this is NOT a huge fee.

-m>>>>

The baseball players are not paying their own airfair, and for room and board. Their parents are not driving them to the airport and flying to Florida with them. They are not paying for coaching fees and lessons. There is a difference.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Mo
These prices are for watching things where you are purely a spectator and have NOT already paid for.
You are paying to see professional athletes doing their job. Fencers are not professional athletes paid between 100,000s of thousands to multi million dollars a year. Movie prices are for actors who make film for a business who are paid even more.

The baseball players are not paying their own airfair, and for room and board. Their parents are not driving them to the airport and flying to Florida with them. They are not paying for coaching fees and lessons. There is a difference.

How the participants are getting there/paying for it is irrelevant. unless, of course, you are saying that PARENTS should not have to pay the entry fee, which I would agree with, and point out that as AFC Fencer said, their children can list them as coach, since it only takes one fencer to get a coach in, and most coaches have more than one fencer, the rest can list their parents. for unrelated people, or even relatives who are NOT neccesary to the fencer getting there, it is irrelevant what the fencers are being paid. After all, people pay a lot more than 8.75 to watch figure skating and gymnastics, both of which are events where the parents are driving them to the airport, flying to FL with them, paying coaching fees and lessons. clearly, there is not a difference THERE.

In addition, I would again like to point out that it is NOT a fee to watch the fencing event. it is a fee to get into the complex as a whole, which they charge every day of the year. the complex has a whole lot more attractions than just our tournament, and you can't expect them to let everybody in for free who says that they are going to watch fencing. I again take you back to the EPCOT analogy. If we were fencing in EPCOT, would you expect them to let in random people for free just because they said they were going to watch fencing???? This, too, is one of their parks. it is rediculous for you to ask them to waive the entry fee because we are fencing there. The sweet deal they are probably giving USFA on the venue makes it even more rediculous for you to ask that. (again, with the exception of parents, who you can get credentials for in the way I previously mentioned)

-m

[Mo]

this is the second to the last paragraph on the Waiver required by Di$ney:

"I further grant the released parties, (DI$NEY) the right to photograph and or videotape me or my child and further to use my child's NAME, likeness, voice and appearance in connections with exhibitions, publicity advertising and promotional materials without reservation OR LIMITATION. There released parties are, however under no obligation to exercise said rights herein granted."


There will be young people here working their way up through the ranks trying to get places on future Olympic teams. Should they make it they have one thing to keep the right to designate how their name is used. Not according to Di$ney...

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by Mo
this is the second to the last paragraph on the Waiver required by Di$ney:

"I further grant the released parties, (DI$NEY) the right to photograph and or videotape me or my child and further to use my child's NAME, likeness, voice and appearance in connections with exhibitions, publicity advertising and promotional materials without reservation OR LIMITATION. There released parties are, however under no obligation to exercise said rights herein granted."


There will be young people here working their way up through the ranks trying to get places on future Olympic teams. Should they make it they have one thing to keep the right to designate how their name is used. Not according to Di$ney...

Again, I would just like to point out that gymnasts, ice skaters, and numerous other athletes go through this. this is NOT outrageous. In fact, it is pretty standard.

-m