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jspierre · 09-30-2002, 01:21 PM

I've seen tapes of him now quite a bit, and am struck by his style, characterized by absence of blade, stop hits that come from nowhere and broad stance that seems to facililtate a highly calibrated sense of distance, which he uses to devastating success.

His feints seem to freeze his opponents (particularly his mid-lunge low feint, high hit) and he has a way of getting underneath taller opponents without resorting to deeply closing distance or infighting.

The guy seems on top of his game, which is kind of unique looking in style (not very classical nor very "Russian", to me).

What elements of his technique constitute his decisive competitive advantages in his dominance in the game now?

D'Artagnan1673 · 09-30-2002, 04:27 PM

Hmm...... can't really say since I am hardly of his calibre. However, I will agree that he is quite a fencer. The amusing thing is that he's been around forever! If you watch the 1989 World Champs in Denver, he's right in the thick of that one. He made it to 3rd place that year.

He definately has a very unique style where his lead leg sticks out quite a bit and his torso is completely erect. He also likes to bring his weapon up a bit and parry/riposte to the wrist. Its kind of a parry to prime.

I see dead people · 10-01-2002, 03:25 AM

where can I get 2002 worldchampionship video tape.

edew · 10-01-2002, 05:14 AM

I haven't heard from Peter G about the tapes.

Spanky McFarland · 10-01-2002, 08:59 AM

I have to say, that the only fencing I enjoyed watching at the World Champs was the Epee, and I'm a foilist. Kolobkov was oustanding. He seemed to be able to make Jeannet miss him (and I don't think a fencer of Jeannet's class just misses people) without moving his body. He is also very fond of an octave beat/ parry followed by a lunge, which he executes at frightening speed.

Watching Kolobkov fence with grace, speed, precision and athleticism made the foilists look like ill-coordinated children flailing at each other. As for the ladies' foil final...I think the slow hand-clapping from the crowd summed it up.

I almost switched to epee as a consequence, until I realised that, although foil may not look as good, I personally find it considerably more fun.

veeco · 10-01-2002, 01:20 PM

Kolobkov....

Amazing fencer. Quite possibly the fencer of the century.

Think about this: there has been countless fencers who in foil and sabre made their mark on the FIE "palmares".

But sabre and foil are right of way weapons. In sabre and foil, if you are better than someone, chances are, you will beat him.

In epee, it's a different story. To be consistently at the top in epee is quite an achievement, that cannot be topped by any achievement in foil or sabre.

edew · 10-01-2002, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by veeco
Kolobkov....

Amazing fencer. Quite possibly the fencer of the century.

[...]

Is that century, "this" century or "last" century, or any continuous 100 year span?

veeco · 10-01-2002, 05:56 PM

This century is kinda new for one to make claims as to who's going to be the fencer of this century.

"Any continuous 100 years span" is somewhat empirical, so I would not use that.

The "previous" century is the one I'm talking about. Some may disagree with my opinion but I think Kolobkov merits this title.

Why is it that when I was writing this I somehow knew that someone would ask this exact same question???

I must be psychic.

Purple Fencer · 10-01-2002, 06:19 PM

And you could'a bet money it would be Eric!!

I saw Kolobkov once at the Palm Springs NAC a few years back. IN a DE he started slowly dropping his point, aiming at the other guy's front foot, obviously planning to go for it. K goes (like, Warp 9) , other dude retracts his foot..and STILL gets nailed! Damndest epee touch I've ever seen..jaws dropped all around the piste.

jspierre · 10-01-2002, 06:55 PM

My question is 'what are the take-aways' when you consider him as one example of an elite fencer? By fencing with absence of blade, he doesn't loose any time in counter-attacks or parries; on the contrary, this seems to unclutter his abillity to vizualize the bout, and in so doing, control and assume initiative. I guess he is supremely confident of his hand tempo, maybe because he 'learns' and anticipates his opponet better, focusing on his opponent rather than superficial preparations.

Anybody every fence him out there? What did you learn from the experience (seriously).

haggis · 10-01-2002, 07:17 PM

Greatest Fencer of the Century? I think Kolobkov is a great fencer. No doubt about that, in my opinion. But even if I only consider fencers that are active now or have been active during my fencing lifetime then Kolobkov faces some pretty fearsome opposition. Pozdniakov in men's sabre (my weapon of greatest ignorance so there may be others), Vezzali, Trillini and Fichtel in women's foil, Goloubitsky, Omnes, Numa and Romankov in men's foil, Boisse and Smidt in men's epee. No doubt you could all make further suggestions.

Kolobkov has won 3(?) world champs and an Olympic gold and has been in the top 10 of the world rankings for over a decade. Pretty impressive, I have to agree. Several of the others I've mentioned have similar or greater achievements and longevity.

So who's the greatest? Too hard to call.

On a more personal note, I've never fenced him. I did manage to lose to a very ordinary Frenchman in the last 96 at the World Cup in Glasgow. The Frenchman then went on to get hammered by Kolobkov in the last 64. Nearly touched (repeatedly) by greatness, I suppose

dreadfoil · 10-01-2002, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Spanky McFarland
I have to say, that the only fencing I enjoyed watching at the World Champs was the Epee, and I'm a foilist. Kolobkov was oustanding. He seemed to be able to make Jeannet miss him (and I don't think a fencer of Jeannet's class just misses people) without moving his body. He is also very fond of an octave beat/ parry followed by a lunge, which he executes at frightening speed.

Watching Kolobkov fence with grace, speed, precision and athleticism made the foilists look like ill-coordinated children flailing at each other. As for the ladies' foil final...I think the slow hand-clapping from the crowd summed it up.

I almost switched to epee as a consequence, until I realised that, although foil may not look as good, I personally find it considerably more fun.

I have never seen any tapes etc of this fencer, i would love to watch more. his 8 parry/riposte sounds good, that's a difficult one, he's protecting his leg, in epee, do you recommend only going to the knee if you 'miss' the arm? or feint to the arm and drop to the knee? where could we get some tapes, does craig have any? but if we watch the tapes and someone grunts in a similar fashion, will we be 'treated' to a rerun of this? i wonder, after fencing the japanese girls, who grunt, cry 'my attack','my attack', who allowed a strange man, [a director,but....] to stick his hand down the front of her jacket, let's hope they don't sound russian or spanish. it would be not so good, in fact i hope they do, i want them to yell dassvadollya at every hit, off or on target. i'm going back to that thread and tell that puny little runt a thing or two.

veeco · 10-01-2002, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by haggis
Greatest Fencer of the Century? I think Kolobkov is a great fencer. No doubt about that, in my opinion. But even if I only consider fencers that are active now or have been active during my fencing lifetime then Kolobkov faces some pretty fearsome opposition. Pozdniakov in men's sabre (my weapon of greatest ignorance so there may be others), Vezzali, Trillini and Fichtel in women's foil, Goloubitsky, Omnes, Numa and Romankov in men's foil, Boisse and Smidt in men's epee. No doubt you could all make further suggestions.

If you reread my post, you will see that I was saying that achieving what he has achieved in epee (especially being THAT consistent) is something that I have never heard of before. If you look at the FIE website (under "Palmares") in senior men's epee, you will see that Kolobkov's name appears 10 times. Srecki's name appears only 8 times. Schmitt's name appears 10 times, but he was world champion only once and olympic champion only once. Screcki has 2 world titles and one olympic title. Boisse has even less (1 world and one olympic).

The closest I can found is Eduardo Mangiarotti, and he was fencing in the 50s, when fencing was strictly a european affair, and nowhere as competitive as it is now.

I see dead people · 10-01-2002, 11:02 PM

but for whatever reason Arnd Schmitt kicked his *** everytime.

haggis · 10-03-2002, 05:26 PM

Veeco

Granted I didn't check the stats on other epeeists before posting, so lets make an assumption based purely on World/Olympic titles won and number of occasions in top 10 of World rankings. Kolobkov may well be the greatest at epee. However your claim that the greatest epeeist equals greatest fencer would, I'm sure, be contested by many, myself included. Arguing that one weapon is inherently superior to another isn't going to get a unanimous verdict. I've never fenced sabre seriously but won't dare suggest that it's an inferior weapon (well, maybe quietly

).

Regards

Haggis

veeco · 10-03-2002, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by haggis
Veeco

Granted I didn't check the stats on other epeeists before posting, so lets make an assumption based purely on World/Olympic titles won and number of occasions in top 10 of World rankings. Kolobkov may well be the greatest at epee. However your claim that the greatest epeeist equals greatest fencer would, I'm sure, be contested by many, myself included. Arguing that one weapon is inherently superior to another isn't going to get a unanimous verdict. I've never fenced sabre seriously but won't dare suggest that it's an inferior weapon (well, maybe quietly ).

Regards

Haggis

This has nothing to do with what weapon is superior to the other. This has to do with the nature of the weapons. In foil, if you are better than someone, chances are that you are going to win with no problem. Same for sabre. That's because of the ROW rules, which can protect you. In epee, you have double touches that can count against you, you have touches where you go for something, do a near perfect execution, but sligthly of tempo and you get hit on a counter attack. Let's say you are at 14-12 in a tight bout. You're fencing someone who's not really better than you, just a notch below. If you do 2 attacks like the one mentionned above, you are back at 14-14, and at this point it's anybody's game. For what it's worth, both fencers could unhook, and put their grandmothers on the strip, the odds would be the same.

In epee, anything can happen. Being consistently at the top in epee IS harder than being consistently at the top in foil or sabre. It doesn't mean that epee is "better" or "worse" than foil or sabre, that's just the way these weapons are. Achieving that level of consistency in foil or sabre is something that can be taken for granted. In epee it's not.

edew · 10-04-2002, 05:38 AM

I would have to concur. Epee has more luck involved. So, to be able to maintain a top ranking, you have to overcome the luck factor. And that's not easy.

haggis · 10-05-2002, 01:18 PM

Ok, I've had a closer look at the results in the various weapons over the course of my lifetime and I'll concede the point on Kolobkov in men's epee. However, I'll nominate Alexander Romankov (men's foil) as the greatest fencer of that period. He won 5 World Championships, was 2nd twice and won two Olympic bronze medals (and wouldn't have taken part in the '84 Olympics due to Soviet boycott). These achievements covered the period 1974 - 1988, a time of enormous change (for better or worse) in the way foil was fenced and refereed. Foil is also, usually, a young man's weapon and by 1988 Romankov must have been considered, oh blooming ancient

. If Kolobkov wins next years Worlds then we have a tie for number of World/Olympic titles won and then we have to weigh up whether Kolobkov's achievements in a weapon where longevity is balanced against luck are superior to Romankov's in a weapon where advantage of ROW is balanced against changeable refereeing and the prevalance of youth.

Just food for thought, you understand. Epeeists perhaps shouldn't complain that luck plays too big a part in their weapon. It leaves their best results open to question!!

Regards

Haggis

edew · 10-07-2002, 02:26 PM

The luck factor occurs in the early rounds. That may affect the seeding into the subsequent rounds.

Emfuser · 10-12-2002, 09:09 PM

Pavel is a really cool guy. I went to an OSU training camp during the short time he was there. I talked to Pavel every chance I got because he always had good stories to tell.

The man is SICKENINGLY fast and clean clean clean. Watching him fencing was poetry in motion.

You should've seen him fencing foil... it was atrocious to see that much epeé technique in foil (he got pounded).