Smallest population that can support a commercial club?

[Phrogger]

Just curious. Our town has a population of about 30,000 (not counting neighboring fencing-free areas which we could draw from) and has about 30 club members. Our club fees are *almost* free however ($40/yr), and I'm curious about the viability of raising fees and moving to a semi-permanent location. The next nearest town that sustains an active "commercial" fencing club is closer to 90,000 in size.

So, if you attend or run a club in a small town, roughly, what is your town's population, and how many dues-paying members do you have? I'm looking for commercially viable clubs (clubs that run in the black, not in the red or at a zero balance, like ours does). Also, if you know, how close is your next-nearest club? Mine is over two hours away, so I could possibly catch anyone inside of that radius.

[noodle]

50,000.

just kidding.

there are way too many variables to be able to draw a line on this and say you need a town of X population.

do the math, see how much it would cost you, top to bottom, to run a club how you would like to run it. then figure out how many students you would need at what cost to put you in the black. can you draw that many at that price? if you think its possible, give it a shot.

[Allen Evans]

The size of your town is important, and it's good that you are considering that. But how close is the nearest town(s), and how many people live there?

Here in the Northern Virginia area, people will drive 30-45 minutes for a good fencing opportunity (or longer). You might find yourself drawing in fencers from further out than you would expect, if there are few fencing opportunities close by. This too, might be a factor.

AE

[Phrogger]

There may be too many variables to predict a club's success with perfect accuracy, but market research is the key to any business plan, hence my informal survey.

Closest towns without a fencing club are 8,000, 20,000, 30,000 70,000, and 90,000, within an hour's drive (that makes us the closest). County populations are actually quite a bit higher. I feel we have a good central location in the region but recruiting beginning fencers from this distance may prove to be a challenge.

[Allen Evans]

So, you might want to pick a site a little ways out of your town, but closer to one of the other towns. Even if you cut 15 minutes off a drive, that might make a difference. What sort of fencing community exists in the other towns? That might be worth asking around at the next tournament.

You'll have to run a bunch of different scenarios in your business model, but do run one. With a small potential in the local fencing population, you'll have to start a little small, and grow from there. Once you start, find out where the bulk of your membership is coming from, and adjust future expansions accordingly.

Fairbanks, Alaska has a permanent fencing club, though it's very small. If they can make a go of it in that town, I think any town can support a club.

AE

[RITFencing]

There are more things to worry about than just population. What's the average household income there? Is there much competition from other sports? How much does commercial real estate tend to run? How much are your coaches and other employees (if any) prepared to live off of?

If you try to transition a basically free club into one run as a business, you're going to lose membership. Maybe not the whole thing, but I can almost promise you that there will be a fair percentage who suddenly find out that fencing really isn't worth 75 or 100 dollars a week.

[Phrogger]

Heh, nobody is going to pay those Bay prices here! Most clubs in our state are close to the $70 a month level. There is one successful permanent club in the division that charges about $25 a month, I think that's closer to what we're looking at here. I know there will be some attrition but we can accommodate most people with memberships at different price points.

[Hauptman]

Originally Posted by Phrogger

Heh, nobody is going to pay those Bay prices here! Most clubs in our state are close to the $70 a month level. There is one successful permanent club in the division that charges about $25 a month, I think that's closer to what we're looking at here. I know there will be some attrition but we can accommodate most people with memberships at different price points.

It's been my experience that charging too little is even more damaging than charging too much. If your main job in promoting your business is to convince your customers of the value of your product/service, how can you do that when you're practically giving it away?

The relative size of your population is only a factor relating to your effectiveness at attracting and keeping customers. If you only need 100 regular members to hit break even then a population of 10,000 should be more than enough if you are good at promoting your business.

This is where most small businesses fail; they lack professionalism. They have only a vague plan with little idea of how they're going to implement it. Most small business owners can't even tell you where their money comes from or goes to!! Go into this venture like you're building a Fortune 500 company and you'll have a much better chance.

On a side note, Tauberbischofsheim has a population of just over 13,000. Emil Beck did a hell of a job.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Hauptman

It's been my experience that charging too little is even more damaging than charging too much. If your main job in promoting your business is to convince your customers of the value of your product/service, how can you do that when you're practically giving it away?

The relative size of your population is only a factor relating to your effectiveness at attracting and keeping customers. If you only need 100 regular members to hit break even then a population of 10,000 should be more than enough if you are good at promoting your business.

This is where most small businesses fail; they lack professionalism. They have only a vague plan with little idea of how they're going to implement it. Most small business owners can't even tell you where their money comes from or goes to!! Go into this venture like you're building a Fortune 500 company and you'll have a much better chance.

On a side note, Tauberbischofsheim has a population of just over 13,000. Emil Beck did a hell of a job.

good post.

except, beck drew people in after a small beginning, iirc

[Phrogger]

Originally Posted by Hauptman

It's been my experience that charging too little is even more damaging than charging too much. If your main job in promoting your business is to convince your customers of the value of your product/service, how can you do that when you're practically giving it away?

True, but I'm also looking at competing activities in the area and their rates: Gymnastics, soccer, karate, etc. Many of these activities have much more to offer for a lower price. Professional coaching, free equipment, summer camps, even afterschool pickup. All I could offer at the moment would be beginners' classes, intermediate classes, and free fencing.

Originally Posted by Hauptman

The relative size of your population is only a factor relating to your effectiveness at attracting and keeping customers. If you only need 100 regular members to hit break even then a population of 10,000 should be more than enough if you are good at promoting your business.

On a side note, Tauberbischofsheim has a population of just over 13,000. Emil Beck did a hell of a job.

Beck of course had several advantages that I don't have, including a population with an established fencing tradition and a world-class coach. Point taken, however that size is relative.

Originally Posted by Hauptman

This is where most small businesses fail; they lack professionalism. They have only a vague plan with little idea of how they're going to implement it. Most small business owners can't even tell you where their money comes from or goes to!! Go into this venture like you're building a Fortune 500 company and you'll have a much better chance.

I've got some experience writing a business plan and I understand cash flow pretty well. I suppose it's largely a matter of getting over the fear factor and just jumping in at some point. No business is a sure thing! It would help if I had support from within the club though. No one seems keen to raise prices and splitting the club wouldn't be to anyone's advantage.

Thanks for the comments, I enjoy the discussion even though it's largely speculative.

[Hauptman]

Owning your own small business can be such a rewarding, if exhausting, adventure. Sometimes I miss it, sometimes I don't.

I wish you good luck!

[Allen Evans]

When Salle Auriol Seattle went from a part time, meeting in donated rooms, getting shifted around every few months to another space club to a club with a small (but permenent) space, there was a lot of push back from members who didn't feel that they should have to pay for fencing. We lost most of those members in the first six months, when we did not allow them to fence without paying their floor fees. Fortunately, a series of strong beginner classes taught by the coaches (who did so without pay) made up for any loss of membership.

I think the secret to starting a club in a small community consists of two things: Not getting too ambitious with your first space, and finding a partner that can get the word out about your classes. For Salle Auriol, it was a local adult education program that our first classes were organized through. Being part of their program insured that we had "free" advertising for our classes for the first two or three years. After that, we didn't need to offer classes through them (we had enough web advertising and word of mouth to strike out on our own).

AE

ps -- Beck wasn't always a "world class" coach. His training was (and probably remains so) very controversial in Germany. Tauber was founded before he had assumed his reputation on the world stage.

[RITFencing]

Originally Posted by Phrogger

Heh, nobody is going to pay those Bay prices here! Most clubs in our state are close to the $70 a month level. There is one successful permanent club in the division that charges about $25 a month, I think that's closer to what we're looking at here. I know there will be some attrition but we can accommodate most people with memberships at different price points.

Does that include private lessons, competition, etc? I'm trying to list the total price for fencing (and I may be coming up short there.)

[Phrogger]

Originally Posted by RITFencing

Does that include private lessons, competition, etc? I'm trying to list the total price for fencing (and I may be coming up short there.)

In a brief survey of 4 N.C. clubs:

Large city A: $70/month, 1 weekly group lesson, use of facility/open fencing

Large city B: $75/month with a 1-year contract, beginner equipment provided, use of facility (includes martial arts)

Medium city: $70/month, 1 group lesson per week, equipment provided for beginners only, use of facility/open fencing

Small city: $25/month (lower price for additional family members), beginner equipment provided for 6 months, access to facility/open fencing only (classes extra)

My idea is to start out charging $50 for 6 weeks of beginner lessons, all equipment provided, then $25 a month for membership (own equipment required), which would include two three-hour sessions per week in a shared facility. Once a steady cash flow begins we can step up the price to fit the benefits offered. Ideal end state would be a "permanent" facility at closer to the going rate, with beginner and intermediate classes offered on a regular basis, free fencing, and access to exercise equipment. Fencers teaching group lessons at least one night a week would be offered free membership. Qualified fencers teaching private lessons could keep whatever they charge.

I think it's doable, but like I said, largely an issue of getting over the fear and deciding if this is something I want to basically spend all my waking hours doing. I wish someone else would do it, truthfully!

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by Phrogger

Large city B: $75/month with a 1-year contract, beginner equipment provided, use of facility (includes martial arts)

Note, for example, that this rate probably includes group classes but no private lessons. I think that private lessons are an additional $25 or $30 per 30 minute lesson (with some discount when paying for lessons in blocks).

So, if you're fencing a few nights a week and getting a 30-minute private lesson every week, you'd be paying closer to $200 / month. It's not quite the $100/week that RITFencing mentioned, but it's much closer than the $75/month figure.

[Greg]

If you own or rent your facility, considering adding other sports such as aerobic, spinning, etc during days or times when fencing is not done. These popular activities will help pay the rent. Its pretty easy to find aerobics instructors compared to fencing coaches.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally Posted by Phrogger

Just curious. Our town has a population of about 30,000 (not counting neighboring fencing-free areas which we could draw from) and has about 30 club members. Our club fees are *almost* free however ($40/yr), and I'm curious about the viability of raising fees and moving to a semi-permanent location. The next nearest town that sustains an active "commercial" fencing club is closer to 90,000 in size.

So, if you attend or run a club in a small town, roughly, what is your town's population, and how many dues-paying members do you have? I'm looking for commercially viable clubs (clubs that run in the black, not in the red or at a zero balance, like ours does). Also, if you know, how close is your next-nearest club? Mine is over two hours away, so I could possibly catch anyone inside of that radius.

Since sports are done differently in som many ways when comparing USA to Sweden, the qualification "Commercial" would lead you astray, and I simply list the county populations in my province of Sweden - Scania - which have a fencing club:

1. Malmö - population 287,000
2. Helsingborg - 94,000
3. Lund - 76,000
4. Kristianstad - 33,000 in the town, 77,000 in the county. My place.
5. Ystad - 17,000 in the town, 27,000 in the county.

Ystad is one of the smallest towns in Sweden to support a fencing club, yet is one of the better, with a large youth program and a big national competition.

If one looks at the population which is closer to Ystad than to any other fencing town, one arrives at a catchment population of: 19415+12715+14703+27398+17721=91952

Other small counties which support fencing are Falun (pop.55,000), Boden(27,000) and Gotland(57,000). Boden is a military town, and the fencing club is a part of the military sports club. That helps with funding, place to be, and stability. Yet, it is one of the smallest clubs, and the long distances to other clubs (4 hours by car to the closest one) do not help. Gotland is one of very flew counties in Sweden which hosts more than one fencing club, but they are all offshoots of the same program. There is a voucher school there where the principal/founder was an avid fencer in his youth, and he has made fencing (and Spanish, for that matter!) part of the mandatory curriculum of that school.

The largest county in Sweden which does not have a fencing club is Borås, home to 101,000 people.

Driving distance: from my club the closest other place is about one hour, and within 2 hours there are 5 clubs in Sweden and a few in Denmark.

My gut feeling is that a place under 50,000 people would require something special for it to sustain an economically viable club in the steady-state. If the city has at least 200,000 people, OTOH, things would really have to go bad for it to not be able to carry a fencing club. Presence of a university, or to a lesser extent a military installation, helps things quite a bit.

A long time ago, I started a thread in which I asked people to supply names and population figures of the biggest place nearby that did not have a fencing club. IIRC, there were some US. cities with in excess of 100,000 people but no fencing club.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson