Now that I've come to appreciate the breadth of knowledge and experience here, I have a question that I hope someone can help me with. Please note, for those of you looking for a fight, that this is not a problem, but just a question.
Is it proper for a person who has coached or given lessons, whether individual or group, to be the strip coach in a bout against the fencer who he had previously coached?
My experience is that a coach who is currently working with two fencers who face each other will sit out the bout and let the fencers fence. But what of the coach who, at some point in the past, coached the adverse fencer? Assume, for the sake of argument, that he gained some private knowledge of issues or weaknesses that the fencer had. Can he tell the fencer he is now coaching about them or how to exploit those weaknesses? Is he obliged to help his current student, or protect the confidences of his former student?
This hasn't happened to my son, so it isn't a problem for us, but I've wondered about whether there is a rule, or some ethical proscription, or something else that applies? Is there a time frame? Does it matter whether the fencer took individual lessons or group classes?
My personal feeling is that a coaches obligation to a current student supersedes that of past students.
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Is it proper for a person who has coached or given lessons, whether individual or group, to be the strip coach in a bout against the fencer who he had previously coached?
It is entirely proper.
I'll give you an example. One of my former students from the East Coast, ended up fencing one of my students from West Coast, at the first event of this season (I left last year after Junior Olympics). Winner makes their first Cadet final.
Let's flip your argument around: Is it ethical, if I am a fencing coach, paid to train and push my students in practice hard, and then providing feedback from the side of the strip, for me to NOT do my best to help that student win?
It's not. In this case, my former student and I are very close - we worked together for a long time, travelled internationally together, and there were stretches of time where I saw her as much as her parents did! But she's not a member of my new club (between teammates, the coach should always sit it out unless it's a training event) ... I would not be doing my job if I didn't give my current student a full accounting of my former student's weaknesses.
Obviously, there are good and bad ways to handle this, depending on what the relationship between coach and former student is like.
But she's not a member of my new club (between teammates, the coach should always sit it out unless it's a training event) ... I would not be doing my job if I didn't give my current student a full accounting of my former student's weaknesses.
I can see arguments to be made for both sides. On the one hand, a coach must help whoever he's coaching at the moment to the best of his ability. On the other hand, a coach shouldn't use information that came into his possession via coaching against the person (like a lawyer can't use privileged information against a former client).
But like all things where there are valid arguments that cut either way, one side must ultimately prevail. I just wondered which.
Also, reminds me that as we switch coaches, to be a bit careful about what the old coache is told, as it might come back to haunt you.
I can see arguments to be made for both sides. On the one hand, a coach must help whoever he's coaching at the moment to the best of his ability. On the other hand, a coach shouldn't use information that came into his possession via coaching against the person (like a lawyer can't use privileged information against a former client).
its not about student or former student. a coaching position is a paying job. they're being paid to help the student win. most coaches are being paid to attend a tournament to assist specific students, who pay for the assistance.
it would be like you paying a personal trainer, and the trainer shows up, puts the weights in your hand, and says "have at it". or if you had to call up weight watchers and ask them if you're allowed to eat something before each meal, instead of them telling you what is good to eat. why would you pay for that?
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Originally Posted by JAG
But like all things where there are valid arguments that cut either way, one side must ultimately prevail. I just wondered which.
Also, reminds me that as we switch coaches, to be a bit careful about what the old coache is told, as it might come back to haunt you.
its so rarely an issue, and its such a bad idea to not discuss your personal weaknesses with a coach, that you shouldn't bother.
As more and more coaches find a way to make a living coaching in what is still a small community, these sorts of conflicts are going to occur more and more often. On a wider venue, professional coaches in other sports regularly switch teams: facing their old teams in competitions with real money on the line.
I think that coaching against a former student is the reality of the situation, even if we don't like it (I haven't enjoyed it when I've done it, but I also understand that its my job). I think that other sports have good examples of how this situation can be handled with some class, and we need to take the cue from them.
I think that if a coach is leaving a club that this would be a good discussion for the coach to have with the students he or she has been responsible for.
Taking this logic to the extreme, were this unethical, my new strategy would be to get some lessons from every coach in the region/country. That way no one could ever strip coach against me.
Tomas
p.s. One of my goals this year has been to get some lessons from different coaches in the region, but not so they wouldn't coach against me.
its so rarely an issue, and its such a bad idea to not discuss your personal weaknesses with a coach, that you shouldn't bother.
I'm with Allen on this, as I've seen it happen numerous times, though not with me. It may not be the case where you are, but it is most assuredly the case where I am.
As an example, I saw a junior qualifier DE where one fencer, down 8-3 at the first break, had his current coach (and the other fencer's former coach) whisper in his ear, and then come back to win the DE 15-9. It was absolutely unbelievable to watch. I asked the coach what he told him, as we're friends, and he told me that his former student had one huge weakness, and he told his current student how to exploit it.
So I wouldn't be too quick to think that it doesn't happen to others even if it's not your experience. And frankly, with the bout that I described, most of us felt that it was very awkward, as if there was an unfair advantage by the coach giving away his former student's secrets. It wasn't just that he helped his new student, but that he told a secret that was given him in good faith and trust.
Taking this logic to the extreme, were this unethical, my new strategy would be to get some lessons from every coach in the region/country. That way no one could ever strip coach against me.
The analogy is a bit off, Tomas. Giving away a former student's secret weaknesses isn't the same as being able to coach a fencer when the other was a former student.
I speak for myself: I am frankly annoyed if any opponent is coached by anyone. My faults are obvious to anyone who fences, it seems. The biggest lunkhead dullard in the club can whisper in Jack B. Nimble's ear, and suddenly the kid is five touches ahead, and I can't figure out /change what I'm doing fast enough. We keep these little observations about each other secret, if we can, so as to take whatever advantage we can in the next bout. Humiliation and repetition seem to be the footholds to my growth. Ethical? I'm giving it away myself !
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So I wouldn't be too quick to think that it doesn't happen to others even if it's not your experience. And frankly, with the bout that I described, most of us felt that it was very awkward, as if there was an unfair advantage by the coach giving away his former student's secrets. It wasn't just that he helped his new student, but that he told a secret that was given him in good faith and trust.
i know it happens, it happens to me. you'll even find coaches that will coach a student paying for coaching against a current student who isn't. they'll make it clear whats happening, typically. you'll also find that your friends will coach their teammates on how to beat you. and numerous other things.
basically, learn to get over it. if you don't open up to your coach about your weaknesses, they'll be permanent because they'll never get worked on. and i highly suggest not switching coaches frequently if you can help it.
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Originally Posted by JAG
The analogy is a bit off, Tomas. Giving away a former student's secret weaknesses isn't the same as being able to coach a fencer when the other was a former student.
what would you rather have a coach tell a student instead of a secret weakness? pat on the head and tell them they're doing a good job?
and what exactly would you consider a "secret weakness"? is a beat attack a "secret weakness"? a counterattack? what is the line between "this is obvious" vs "this is something secret and special you wouldn't otherwise discover"
i know it happens, it happens to me. you'll even find coaches that will coach a student paying for coaching against a current student who isn't. they'll make it clear whats happening, typically. you'll also find that your friends will coach their teammates on how to beat you. and numerous other things.
In your last post, you said it so rarely happened that it wasn't worth bothering with. Now it happens and it's happened to you. You need to figure out which side you're on and then stick with it.
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Originally Posted by noodle
basically, learn to get over it. if you don't open up to your coach about your weaknesses, they'll be permanent because they'll never get worked on. and i highly suggest not switching coaches frequently if you can help it.
Since it was a question and not a problem, why would anybody need "to get over it?" Then you talk about "switching coaches frequently." And where did you dream this up? It's hardly unusual for people to switch coaches, and in some areas, there aren't that many good coaches around that students don't overlap. And if this doesn't happen to you, that's great. So why do you feel the need to make an argument over it?
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Originally Posted by noodle
what would you rather have a coach tell a student instead of a secret weakness? pat on the head and tell them they're doing a good job?
A coach can tell a student how to improve his fencing or deal with what's happening on the strip without telling the student about inside information about another, just as he would do if he hadn't coached the other fencer. The coach would do exactly what most strip coaches do. Nothing hard to understand about it.
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Originally Posted by noodle
and what exactly would you consider a "secret weakness"? is a beat attack a "secret weakness"? a counterattack? what is the line between "this is obvious" vs "this is something secret and special you wouldn't otherwise discover"
Things that are happening in front of everyone are obvious. Something, like a fencer can't handle a fleche from a lefty or always does the same action when pushed to the end of the strip, won't be obvious. There are any number of possibilities. Think harder about it, and I'm sure you could come up with some on your own.
I see that you don't like it at all when someone doesn't agree with you. Guess what? Get over it.
On the other hand, a coach shouldn't use information that came into his possession via coaching against the person (like a lawyer can't use privileged information against a former client).
Doctor and lawyers are legally obligated, except in certain cases, to protect privileged information about clients.
You have no reasonable right to privacy with regards to any "trade secrets" you have in fencing -- you're doing it right there in the open, which is why plenty of people get out the video cameras when their children are fencing the top fencers in their pool.
In your last post, you said it so rarely happened that it wasn't worth bothering with. Now it happens and it's happened to you. You need to figure out which side you're on and then stick with it.
yep, my fault. my initial statement was in reference to national level events. my second statement was more oriented towards local level events. i didn't notice the discontinuity.
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Originally Posted by JAG
Since it was a question and not a problem, why would anybody need "to get over it?" Then you talk about "switching coaches frequently." And where did you dream this up? It's hardly unusual for people to switch coaches, and in some areas, there aren't that many good coaches around that students don't overlap. And if this doesn't happen to you, that's great. So why do you feel the need to make an argument over it?
you're defending one side of the issue, not simply asking a question.
the switching coaches frequently was a hypothetical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAG
A coach can tell a student how to improve his fencing or deal with what's happening on the strip without telling the student about inside information about another, just as he would do if he hadn't coached the other fencer. The coach would do exactly what most strip coaches do. Nothing hard to understand about it.
Things that are happening in front of everyone are obvious. Something, like a fencer can't handle a fleche from a lefty or always does the same action when pushed to the end of the strip, won't be obvious. There are any number of possibilities. Think harder about it, and I'm sure you could come up with some on your own.
again, the borders of this concept are not clear. what makes "inside information"? what if the coach saw their former student do this action and lose to it earlier in the event? or any time in the past at another previous event? are they still obligated to not speak up? a good coach would notice the weaknesses of individuals at all times and catalog it for future bouts and future tournaments.
i know the strengths and weaknesses of almost every person i fence or simply see fence, just because i might fence them later. i purposefully catalog that type of stuff.
should i also be cataloging when i saw the specific weakness last so that i can compare it to my former student's departure date to know when i'm ethically allowed to mention a weakness i observed at an event?
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Originally Posted by JAG
I see that you don't like it at all when someone doesn't agree with you. Guess what? Get over it.
i see that you're not used to people defending their viewpoints. this is what people typically do when they have a dissenting opinion -- they voice it. that is what is happening here. nothing more, nothing less.
I think that it's a valid question, but I'm with the majority here. I think that the coach must help his current student. Part of the issue here is that I don't know that I believe that there's any secret information that the coach could have gathered. Of course, a coach spends more time observing and thinking about his own students' fencing, but that information can normally be gathered by watching that same fencer fence a few bouts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAG
As an example, I saw a junior qualifier DE where one fencer, down 8-3 at the first break, had his current coach (and the other fencer's former coach) whisper in his ear, and then come back to win the DE 15-9. It was absolutely unbelievable to watch. I asked the coach what he told him, as we're friends, and he told me that his former student had one huge weakness, and he told his current student how to exploit it.
Right, but this happens all the time with good strip coaches. Some people (fencers, coaches, etc.) are really good at watching one or two bouts or even just a few touches and classifying a fencer. If I've never seen my opponent before, I have to gather information on strip (and possibly lose touches while doing it). If I've seen or fenced my opponent in the past, I at least have a starting game plan. If my coach has seen the fencer before, but I have not, then my coach may be able to give me enough information to form an initial game plan. And if my coach sees something during the bout that I missed, he may be able to tell me something during the break that will help me gain an advantage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAG
And frankly, with the bout that I described, most of us felt that it was very awkward, as if there was an unfair advantage by the coach giving away his former student's secrets.
Would it be equally awkward if the fencer was not a former student? What if the coach had merely seen the fencer lose a bout at the previous tournament and knew the weakness from that? What if the coach noticed the weakness from watching the first period? What if the coach knew the weakness from a fencing camp that the opponent attended? All of these situations happen, and they have nothing to do with former students. (If you don't like this part of fencing, then you are with Inq in the "coaches shouldn't be allowed to coach during a bout" camp.)
Would it also have been awkward if the coach's new student had not won? Or if he had been winning the whole time? Was it just the sudden change in momentum that felt strange?
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Originally Posted by JAG
It wasn't just that he helped his new student, but that he told a secret that was given him in good faith and trust.
Again, fencing is a small community. Most of the information you need to know about a fencer is right there on strip. Active coaches will gather information about the fencers that they see frequently. I'm not sure what the fencer could have been doing that was a secret that only a former coach would have known. Perhaps you can provide a couple of good examples of what's a secret and what isn't.
I know a fencer who is weak against low line attacks. I know another fencer who can be pulled into an unwise take over after his opponent's failed attack. One is a fencer from another club. One is a student. How can a coach separate secret information from information that he can share? If you were going to write a rule in an ethics handbook, what would it say?
If your opponent or your opponent's coach or your opponent's friend knows about you from previous experience (e.g., watched your previous bout, fenced against you at the last tournament, formerly coached you, etc.), then you just know that your opponent has an information advantage.
Information helps, but it won't win a bout. For example, it doesn't help a fencer to know that his opponent is bad at parrying back flicks if the fencer can't hit a back flick. In the end, you are fencing your opponent, not his coach. You only have to deal with what that fencer can effectively do on strip today.
I can see arguments to be made for both sides. On the one hand, a coach must help whoever he's coaching at the moment to the best of his ability. On the other hand, a coach shouldn't use information that came into his possession via coaching against the person (like a lawyer can't use privileged information against a former client).
But like all things where there are valid arguments that cut either way, one side must ultimately prevail. I just wondered which.
Also, reminds me that as we switch coaches, to be a bit careful about what the old coache is told, as it might come back to haunt you.
I appreciate the point you're making, but the problem here is choosing the lesser of two evils. Ideally the former student shouldn't have to worry about being vulnerable, but the coach has a duty to his/her current student as well. Additionally, the former student should have a current coach in their corner.
For examples I think we just have to look at other college and professional sports teams. It is quite common for athletes and coaches to change teams. After changing teams it is expected that they will use all the knowledge and experience they have with no exceptions. The former teammates and coaches will have to do their best as well to mitigate the possible damages or possibly use an unexpected change in strategy to their advantage.
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It wasn't just that he helped his new student, but that he told a secret that was given him in good faith and trust.
This is one of those delightfully absurd ideas that keeps me coming back to this site in spite of all the horrifyingly absurd ideas that drive me away.
"I... I'm just so vulnerable in low line. Please... don't tell anyone..."
"Don't worry. Your secret is safe with me."
It's a good thing that kid changed coaches. Clearly, if you have some magical weakness that can turn a 5-touch lead into a 6-touch loss simply by informing your opponent of its existence, you have a pretty bad coach.
What could that weakness have possibly been? "Psst... I know your opponent's secret weakness: he's actually a really crappy fencer. Use it."
Clearly, if you have some magical weakness that can turn a 5-touch lead into a 6-touch loss simply by informing your opponent of its existence, you have a pretty bad coach.
What could that weakness have possibly been? "Psst... I know your opponent's secret weakness: he's actually a really crappy fencer. Use it."
You know, he never told me exactly what he said to his fencer. But I wish I knew the way to turn a 5 touch lead into a 6 touch loss. Seriously, the fencer who lost was a very good fencer, which is likely a big part of why it was such a shocking change of fortune.
In the end, you are fencing your opponent, not his coach. You only have to deal with what that fencer can effectively do on strip today.
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