Ratings Connundrum

[Allen Evans]

But I'll let him know you said so, and I'm sure that will change everything. After all, why would he want to compete and win when he could "just enjoy fencing."

The enjoyment and pleasure of doing something difficult with skilll must outweigh the pursuit of meaningless letters on a seeding chart. If that's not the lesson you're passing along to your fencer, you're doing him a grave disservice.

AE

[JAG]

The enjoyment and pleasure of doing something difficult with skilll must outweigh the pursuit of meaningless letters on a seeding chart. If that's not the lesson you're passing along to your fencer, you're doing him a grave disservice.

It's not the pursuit of letters, but the competition. Competition includes the satisfaction gained from working hard, honing one's skills, exerting the effort and presence of mind, overcoming adversity and ultimately prevailing. That's one of the reasons why they keep score.

If there was no enjoyment, we wouldn't be there in the first place. But the enjoyment of fencing only takes one to last place. After that, all the other life lessons come into play for a fencer to pursue the gold.

[noodle]

It's not the pursuit of letters, but the competition. Competition includes the satisfaction gained from working hard, honing one's skills, exerting the effort and presence of mind, overcoming adversity and ultimately prevailing. That's one of the reasons why they keep score.

If there was no enjoyment, we wouldn't be there in the first place. But the enjoyment of fencing only takes one to last place. After that, all the other life lessons come into play for a fencer to pursue the gold.

didn't he pursue gold? would he still fence and be equally as happy if the ratings weren't even there to make it a higher rated event (instead of having them do poorly)? would he still be fencing if there were no such thing as ratings?

[JAG]

didn't he pursue gold? would he still fence and be equally as happy if the ratings weren't even there to make it a higher rated event (instead of having them do poorly)? would he still be fencing if there were no such thing as ratings?

All true, yet totally irrelevant. There are rating, aren't there? They serve a purpose, don't they? And so your point would be . . . just to be disagreeable over nothing?

[Allen Evans]

Maitre Ed Richards told me once: "I've met a lot of winners, but very few champions".

When you understand that statement, you'll understand Noodle's point.

AE


*(US National Champion, foil and saber, Olympic Team member, World Fencing Masters Champion)

[VorpalCat]

It's not the pursuit of letters, but the competition. Competition includes the satisfaction gained from working hard, honing one's skills, exerting the effort and presence of mind, overcoming adversity and ultimately prevailing. That's one of the reasons why they keep score.

If there was no enjoyment, we wouldn't be there in the first place.

No arguments from me so far.

But the enjoyment of fencing only takes one to last place. After that, all the other life lessons come into play for a fencer to pursue the gold.

Aaaaaaand the wheels fall off. Really? Those who fence purely for the joy of the sport only finish in last place? Ever? Ever ever?? Of course one should strive to improve one's skills in order to keep growing as a fencer and as a competitor. But wotinell does the Great and Mighty Magic Letter of Fencing Rating Goodness have to do with that?? Your definition of 'life lessons' is rather different from mine, I suppose.

I agree with Ionut, Allen, and Noodle. The rating currently in the database has NO impact on how well your fencer does at tournaments. Your fencer is not losing to others simply because he has a lower letter than he should. He is not beating others simply because he has the letter he currently has. He is losing and winning purely on his own fencing abilities. This 'chase the rating' mentality benefits neither the fencer nor the parent.

Stupid analogy time: I got a 100% on my spelling test last week but I got a silver star instead of a gold because the teacher was out of gold stars. I'm now furious because I have a silver star, even though I earned a gold. So part of my life lesson is to b*tch and moan to everyone about how the teacher should have gone to the store sooner, how I was ripped off by not having the appropriate recognition to my score, etc.

No thanks. I try to do better by my fencers than that.

[fencerwallet]

True story. A few years ago, my then 11-year old at Cadet JOs, something like the 115th initial seed, went 4-2 in his pools, beating the #1 kid in his pool, a "B" at that time, 5-0. Seriously, made him cry. Not bawling, mind you, but, yeah, made him cry. Hristov was the referee, if I recall correctly.

Letter ratings mean nothing.

Epilogue: That #1 kid in his pool did end up in the top 8. (does that mean letter ratings do matter?)

[TrainingDummy]

That's about as unhelpful a response as I could imagine. Since people get rated, he's allowed to want to improve his rating. And since this is a competition sport, he's allowed to want to win bouts and tournaments and enjoy whatever advantage he's earned, rather than "just enjoy fencing."

But I'll let him know you said so, and I'm sure that will change everything. After all, why would he want to compete and win when he could "just enjoy fencing."

I don't know how long your son has been fencing or how good he is, but sooner or later he will plateau (stop improving for a period of time, sometimes fencers will even do WORSE than before for awhile). Though I am relatively new fencer (3 years), I have seen what teenagers (all fencers, but especially teens) that are focused on winning bouts vs. enjoying fencing do when they plateau - they get frustrated. They start cutting practice. They don't understand why they aren't getting better even though they aren't going to practice/are goofing off in practice. Often these fencers will quit fencing altogether in frustration, or will switch coaches ("It's the coach's fault!"), keep their bad attitude, and quit fencing when the new coach doesn't improve their performance. My primary club for about a year and a half was full of high school fencers and I saw this pattern quite frequently. A sore, emotional winner won't usually get as far in fencing as a gracious, calm loser.

[JAG]

I've seen, and experience, the plateau as well. But the options are not "winning bouts vs. enjoying fencing," as these are not mutually exclusive. As you ironically note, "why pick just one?"

Very few people in any sport (not just fencing) do not want to win, and do not find losing less enjoyable than winning. It's a human nature thing. When they quit, or blame an external force (their coach) is a personal matter, and when they plateau would be an excellent time to remind them why they are fencers (as opposed to bowlers, for example). Fortunately, this hasn't presented a problem for my son or his friends, none of whom have quit, changed coaches or engaged in acts of violence or debauchery. They just kept working at it and eventually pushed through the other side.

But when they compete, they all strive to win. I wonder why so many people here find that incomprehensible or troubling? Is there some large group of fencers who want to lose that I'm unaware of?

[Rockstar44]

There have been some pretty good responses here, all of which make sense in their way.

However, the USFA does have a rating system, and how a fencer is rated does have some effect when it comes to competitions.

Whatever you think of the importance of ratings, it really just boils down to this:

If the kid earned a rating, then he deserves that rating, and the official records should reflect that rating.

[fencerwallet]

But when they compete, they all strive to win.

Hey, no argument from me. I just like to peel away the collateral reasons why people say winning or losing does or does not happen.

[noodle]

If the kid earned a rating, then he deserves that rating, and the official records should reflect that rating.

and i definitely agree. i'm just pointing out that if the only reason you fence is to earn a higher rating, you're doing it wrong. tournaments shouldn't be considered a wash just because of ratings issues.

[Allen Evans]

But when they compete, they all strive to win. I wonder why so many people here find that incomprehensible or troubling?

I don't think anyone woudl disagree with you on this, and certainly, fencing hard to win (and earning a respectable result in the process) is neither incomprehensible or troubling.

But the enjoyment of fencing only takes one to last place.

...it's this sort of statement that has the rest of us scratching our heads.

AE

[JAG]

...it's this sort of statement that has the rest of us scratching our heads.

It's not that hard a statement to understand. The love of fencing is why one does it at all, but without the desire to be competitive or win, this could be satisfied by open bouting or just entering events for the fun of being there.

It's the love of fencing, combined with the desire to compete and zeal to win that pushes a fencer to enter tournaments and strive to win. As noted above, and as apparently eludes so many here, the love of fencing and a desire to win are not mutually exclusive.

I know fencers who bout regularly but never enter competitions. They fence for enjoyment, but couldn't care less about winning. Some are very good fencers, and could do well but chose to fence solely for the love of the sport. There is nothing wrong with this at all, but it's a different perspective than competitive fencers. And I would not assume that competitive fencers don't love the sport every bit as much as those who chose not to compete.

[JAG]

and i definitely agree. i'm just pointing out that if the only reason you fence is to earn a higher rating, you're doing it wrong. tournaments shouldn't be considered a wash just because of ratings issues.

And nobody has ever suggested anything to the contrary. Yet you felt compelled to create a strawman argument to attack a point that no one argued.

[noodle]

And nobody has ever suggested anything to the contrary. Yet you felt compelled to create a strawman argument to attack a point that no one argued.

hardly. your self-described "rant" suggests that ratings are most, or at least very, important. i'm pointing out that it is very likely that USFA ratings are the *least* important thing.

[academe]

Update: To add insult to injury, however, my son placed third in two competitions this weekend, both of which should have increased his rating with a good showing. He did his part, but . . . you guess it! Not enough of the higher rated fencers made it into the top 8, falling one short of the needed number, so the rating for the competition dropped and his rating remained unchanged. He was furious that his can't get a new rating because he keeps beating higher rated fencers.

This has happened to him twice before in the past 6 months, once his own fault for not carefully checking his scores before signing off, but never has it happened twice in the same weekend.

If some of these higher rated fencers don't start fencing up to snuff, he'll never get a rating increase. He did his part, now the others have to do theirs! This, by the way, is the downside of fencers getting undeserved ratings, as they can't make it into the top 8 and the competition is downgraded.

As a parent that wasted a lot of time and energy (like you seem to be now) worrying about the various things that seem to be conspiring against one's child getting the rating they "deserve," or that a rating or the win is the only measure of success, I can only advise you to reflect a bit about what you are writing here. Learn to help your child let the drive for ratings and the view that the win is the only thing go and the ratings and winning will take care of themselves. It will ease both of your frustration levels and let HIM work on the true value of competition—instilling a work ethic grounded in an honest reflective nature that will help him be successful in life outside of competition.

May I suggest: Print out the post I’ve quoted and paste it on your mirror. Look at it every day. Read it twice a day, three times a day after your child gains the rating that you think so important. Then, on the day when your child, with his grand rating, enters a tournament and finishes out of the top 8 because he:

• has a bad day;
• gets beaten by lower rated fencers because he thought their lower rating meant they sucked;
• gets beaten by lower rated fencers because they just got psyched to beat him, or (I'm hoping for your sake);
• as he matures and is smart enough to realize that some competitions might be for working on technique or tactics and not rating or place, then

you can remember your words and be a bit wiser and understanding about the nature of competition.

As you look on the face of the frustrated child that lost their "deserved" rating because of your son finishing out of the top 8, or read a posting on f.net by Jag2.0 bemoaning about how his child who had to endure "insult being added to injury," you might properly appreciate why people react to your posts in the way they do. When you use terms like "other fencers not fencing up to snuff" or "he did his part, now they have to do theirs", or your most current gem “the enjoyment of fencing only takes one to last place” you sound like a whiner and parent living vicariously through your child, not someone looking to help his child learn to win…and to win graciously.

I know I wasn’t as good at this as I should have been when my child was where yours is now. I still backslide a lot, even though my son is now a man, still fencing, and doesn’t need me to be there to support him anymore. Fortunately his coaches were much better at helping my son understand the true meaning of winning and learning from not winning than I was. (As I read various comments in this thread I see plenty of coaches trying to provide you with this message.)

But I did try to teach my child patience. I tried to teach him not to blame others, or lack of fortune, when not winning. My guiding light in sports (and life) is that one must learn to trust in the difficult. Maybe this is the kind of advice you are looking for when you post in the Parents’ Corner?

Maybe not. I see you too often dispense with others' attempts at helping you see the bigger picture.

But I worry, if you don’t work toward helping your child understand this, once he earns his top rating, he might find out that the game changes in ways that will leave him with a rating and no real appreciation for what competition teaches him about himself. He’ll base his worth on one of the most deceiving siren calls that beginners in competitive sports (and their parents on the sidelines) succumb to—your worth is only measured by wins. One of the purist reasons to compete is to acquire the habits and skills that give one a better chance to be successful in life. I’ve found that most Olympic athletes, medal winners, and professional athletes I have known over the years value the lessons learned from losing more than any medal, rating, or placing they've ever earned. I’ve also found that those who have learned to enjoy competing do so for what it tells them about themselves. The one truth about sport that all athletes, no matter how competitive they are, find out eventually is that they will lose and fall from whatever height they think they’ve attained. What’s left are the lessons they’ve learned that help them translate and apply the drive to win to the real challenge of making a living. (This is especially true in sports like fencing where no one is getting rich off of it last I checked.) Ultimately, their wins are measured in the grace and success they find in life after the glory of the gold fades into the past.

No question, help your child realize that striving for the win is important. At the same time help him understand that even if he doesn't achieve it, there is something of equal or of greater value to gain by learning about oneself. This lesson will make your son a winner long after both of you moves on from the sport.

[Rockstar44]

As a parent that wasted a lot of time and energy (like you seem to be now) worrying about the various things that seem to be conspiring against one's child getting the rating they "deserve," or that a rating or the win is the only measure of success, I can only advise you to reflect a bit about what you are writing here..........No question, help your child realize that striving for the win is important. At the same time help him understand that even if he doesn't achieve it, there is something of equal or of greater value to gain by learning about oneself. This lesson will make your son a winner long after both of you moves on from the sport.

Perfect!

[JAG]

As a parent that wasted a lot of time and energy (like you seem to be now) worrying about the various things that seem to be conspiring against one's child getting the rating they "deserve," or that a rating or the win is the only measure of success, I can only advise you to reflect a bit about what you are writing here. Learn to help your child let the drive for ratings and the view that the win is the only thing go and the ratings and winning will take care of themselves. It will ease both of your frustration levels and let HIM work on the true value of competition—instilling a work ethic grounded in an honest reflective nature that will help him be successful in life outside of competition.

What remains amazing is how simplistic so many here are. Noodles make silly assumptions, then wants to hold me responsible for her fantasies. You assume that people are so singularly one dimensional that raising an issue makes it the central focus of life.

Are you all this vapid? This started out as a beef, but it isn't all there is in life. What could conceivably make people who are apparently smart enough to write in the English language make such bizarrely ridiculous assumptions, as if we are huddled in the basement thinking of ways to strike out at the USFA? You all can't be this insane.

Get a life. Worry about yourselves. We have long since moved beyond with a half dozen tournaments since and plenty of other things to occupy our time. Just because someone raises a beef doesn't mean that they, apparently like all of you, become obsessed about it. Seriously. Worry about yourself. You really need it.

[academe]

This started out as a beef, but it isn't all there is in life.

Our work here is done then.