Ratings Connundrum

[bigyellowboat]

Originally Posted by teacup

Jag,
Have you considered volunteering to be secretary of your division?

Just to provide a little balance. I am the secretary of a division. The way we do it in my division is as follows:

1) The host organization post the results to AskFred or emails them to me.
2) I send rating changes to the USFA within 2 days of receipt of the event. I request a confirmation email from the USFA.
3) If the ratings changes are not there on Friday morning, I call or email the USFA.

This process has worked for me all year. It isn't because of a lack of competitions as we have had one virtually every weekend. The only issue encountered was the database problem but USFA provided a way to deal with that via phone.

So, that being said, if ratings aren't there a week after work with your division identify who dropped the ball and correct it there. I know this is a repetition of things said by others but the process does work especially when the Division Secretary takes it seriously enough.

[teacup]

I didn't mean any disrespect when I suggested Jag volunteer to be division secretary, nor was I suggesting that in his case, it was the division secretary's fault. He had posted that he willingly volunteers to help at tournaments perhaps he would be interested in taking the next step to be a division officer. I have no idea what division his family is in but some divisions really need volunteers on the board especially new parents.

And in the case of our division, classification changes can be submitted by either the division chair or secretary but no classification change will be recognized until it has been submitted and recorded by the USFA.

[JAG]

Just to update a few points, I have heard from both the tournament organizer and the division secretary, with both pointing fingers at each other. I've responded that it really doesn't matter what went wrong, but I would very much appreciate it if they would work together to clear it up.

The div secretary told me that she would submit as soon as she received the results (which the organizer says he sent the day after tournament, but will send again) but that she (the div secy) finds that it often takes the USFA 4-6 weeks to update their records. I'm not prepared to have an argument about this, but it was disconcerting to hear this. From what I see here, this is not an accurate statement of how the USFA handles things.

As for volunteering to help, I have done so with my club and will let the div president know that I would be happy to help as well in whatever capacity would best help, whether it's as secretary or sweeping the floor. I'm happy to help in whatever way I can. My club, I note, has yet to take me up on the offer.

As for my age in the public profile, I have not got a clue how it ended up as 24, but I'm sticking with it. Prove me wrong.

As a parent, as opposed to a volunteer, however, my initial point remains valid as far as I'm concerned, and I have attempted to make clear to all the adults involved that while we are all busily trying to sort things out, without yelling and screaming and too much fingerpointing, I want them to all remember why we are all doing this in the first place.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by JAG

I want them to all remember why we are all doing this in the first place.

The glory and prestige?

-B

[JAG]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

The glory and prestige?

Nuts. Left that part out.

[MyrddinsPrecint]

Originally Posted by JAG

The div secretary told me that she would submit as soon as she received the results (which the organizer says he sent the day after tournament, but will send again) but that she (the div secy) finds that it often takes the USFA 4-6 weeks to update their records. I'm not prepared to have an argument about this, but it was disconcerting to hear this. From what I see here, this is not an accurate statement of how the USFA handles things.

The old system involved your rating being written on your USFA card, you got a new rating, and then the National Office had to get the information (and that was often by mail, rather than email or fax), and then they had to get the information into the system (in an overstressed office) and then new cards were printed and mailed out. From beginning to end, that process could easily take 4 weeks without significant heel dragging or incompetence, but just general overresponsibility and backup.

These days, since cards no longer have to get mailed, and faxing and email has cut down on much communication time, it's not as bad as it used to be.

[fencer92]

I think you bring up valid points and would encourage you to continue to work to make the appropriate changes in your division. While at one time it did take the USFA 4-6 weeks to publish ratings changes we have found, to give them credit, this is no longer the case. There are of course exceptions. And in all actuality when that did occur it was generally because of the delay in reporting by the division. Usually if there are delays now it is because a NAC or another National event is being held at the same time. Even then, things happen much quicker. I am not a frequent poster, but have found overall that the people on the F.Net Board to be help. Occasionally sarcastic but mostly very helpful. I think in someways you are fortunate, much of the information you have received we learned the very hard way. Welcome to F.net. I hope you will continue to participate.

Fencer's Mom

[davesaint]

Originally Posted by JAG

Thanks, Fencers Mom. Actually, my son didn't let it bother him, although he knew that he hadn't been credited for the 2009 rating earned. My issue was that it shouldn't have even been an issue. But I hadn't realized the problem in advance, as he had been credited with the rating at a competition the week before. We learned about it on Friday, which was our travel day and we were too late to deal with it that day.

As for uneven pools, I can't see how anyone can be blamed for that. If there are an uneven number of fencers, there's no choice but to have a smaller pool. Again, this is just another unavoidable issue. Referees are another story, but the human element in directing can't be avoided either. I'm trying to eliminate problems that can, so that we can reduce needless problems, even though it will still leave those problems we can't control.

I do realize that now that it's something that I can and should deal with in advance, but I believe that it shouldn't be a problem at all, and that the people charged with handling ratings will do their job and get this corrected without requiring constant oversight by parents of every detail. Yes, parents can do it. No, parents shouldn't have to.

Jag,

I guess I will wade in on this topic that as a division officer is near and dear to me. In my division it is required that all tournaments forward their results to the division secretary for the results to be sent to the USFA. In the past month, I have had to correct situation where I had not received results from December 2008, and from 2 tournaments in 2007!!!!! On top of this, it is often the case that even if I get the tournament results on the same day as the tournament is completed, the USFA will not have the results updated on their website prior to a tournament on the following weekend.

In cases of National Events, there is a cut off date of I think 3 weeks prior to the event for rate changes to be effective for the NAC.

On top of that, our division will host somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 tournaments per fencing season. It is not uncommon for results to be delayed in getting them to me. Even if I had attended a tournament the week prior to a given event, I would not likely remember whether little Jimmy was one of the people who earned a rating or not, especially if I am either refereeing or competing at the event.

Please be patient with your local division and the USFA. If your child earns a rating at a tournament, ask the tournament organizer for a copy of the results of the event. However, as an occasional tournament organizer, I might have you wait until there is a lull in the event.


Dave

[Rockstar44]

Originally Posted by JAG

As for my age in the public profile, I have not got a clue how it ended up as 24, but I'm sticking with it. Prove me wrong.

So, there is a sense of humor lurking in there after all.

[Mo]

Originally Posted by JAG

As for my age in the public profile, I have not got a clue how it ended up as 24, but I'm sticking with it. Prove me wrong.

That is how I got this name too. Mo??? WTH??? that last thing I would have picked.

Momster

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Mo

That is how I got this name too. Mo??? WTH??? that last thing I would have picked.

I've always like the name Mo. It's short, yet has a certain panache.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Mo

The one thing I wanna know is, how does a 24 year old person have a 14 year old son?

Despite the fact that we now know it to have been an error, I was thinking "married an older man with kids from a previous marriage".

We older guys live for the fantasy that we can still snag 24-year-olds.

[fencerwallet]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Despite the fact that we now know it to have been an error, I was thinking "married an older man with kids from a previous marriage".

We older guys live for the fantasy that we can still snag 24-year-olds.

Where we live, some times you have to watch yourself and what you say, because someone's "daughter" could be their spouse. Or for that matter, some kid's "grandfather" might be their dad.

[Rockstar44]

Originally Posted by fencerwallet

Or for that matter, some kid's "grandfather" might be their dad.

Ouch!

[Mr Epee]

The key to this discussion is expectations of service.

One of the issues at hand is that due to vast number of unique arrangements within various divisions, it is very difficult to understand the nature of this problem. This is not only a problem for the end-users, but also for the central administrators tasked with coordinating incoming information from all corners of the country. The establishment of a single set of divisional standard operating procedures and best practices would go a long way towards solving this type of issue.

Additionally, there comes a point when repeated slights, even when they are not the result of malice, start to feel personal. It is understandable, expected even, that people become irate after repeatedly encountering administrative ineptitude. To deny this is to deny human nature. I believe that JAG's frustration and indignation are just.

Since the USFA requires that the current ratings system be used to seed competitions, then a significant onus is placed on shoulders of an event's administrators to ensure that the ratings used to seed the event are as accurate as possible. This includes the timely submission of ratings changes.

This is true regardless of whether one believes that ratings accurately reflect individual ability.

Knowingly running a competition with inaccurate rating information is a tremendous disservice to the participants. The harm is not limited to the individuals whose ratings have been inaccurately reported, but extends to every other participant in the event. Ultimately, every pool and every DE is effected.

While it's true that the harm may be minimal, the fact remains that with a little vigilance it could be avoided entirely.

One should not have to 'butter up' their division secretary in order to have their rating properly recorded. That's silly. And the 'if you want it done right, then you'll have to do it yourself' mentality isn't much better. We all know this.

Thank you, JAG, for bringing this situation to the community's attention, and best of luck with the resolution process.

[JAG]

I appreciate your thoughts and support. Glad to know I'm not completely crazy.

As it now stands, while the tournament organizer and div president and secretary are fighting it out over who was more wrong, the problem has been resolved by another competition win and another rating update. Just waiting now for it to appear on the USFA website.

[Mo]

Originally Posted by JAG

I appreciate your thoughts and support. Glad to know I'm not completely crazy.

You need YEARS of experience to get as crazy as some of us......
I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.

The Momster

[JAG]

Update: Everything straightened out at the div level and now waiting for USFA to update. We're now one week overdue, but hopeful.

To add insult to injury, however, my son placed third in two competitions this weekend, both of which should have increased his rating with a good showing. He did his part, but . . . you guess it! Not enough of the higher rated fencers made it into the top 8, falling one short of the needed number, so the rating for the competition dropped and his rating remained unchanged. He was furious that his can't get a new rating because he keeps beating higher rated fencers.

This has happened to him twice before in the past 6 months, once his own fault for not carefully checking his scores before signing off, but never has it happened twice in the same weekend.

If some of these higher rated fencers don't start fencing up to snuff, he'll never get a rating increase. He did his part, now the others have to do theirs! This, by the way, is the downside of fencers getting undeserved ratings, as they can't make it into the top 8 and the competition is downgraded.

[Ionut]

There is more to fencing then ratings. Your son shouldn't get furious for not getting his ratings, he should just enjoy fencing. Blaming others and saying that there are fencers with undeserved ratings is just silly.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Ionut

There is more to fencing then ratings. Your son shouldn't get furious for not getting his ratings, he should just enjoy fencing. Blaming others and saying that there are fencers with undeserved ratings is just silly.

That's about as unhelpful a response as I could imagine. Since people get rated, he's allowed to want to improve his rating. And since this is a competition sport, he's allowed to want to win bouts and tournaments and enjoy whatever advantage he's earned, rather than "just enjoy fencing."

But I'll let him know you said so, and I'm sure that will change everything. After all, why would he want to compete and win when he could "just enjoy fencing."