Training Techniques

[135711]

Okay. New Question for the board. I have found that in taking lessons, the student is usually drilling in a fairly classical style. There is nothing wrong with this, it sets the foundation, however, I believe we need to include lessions that include:

1. jumping and attacking
2. jumping parry/riposte
3. jumping and taking the blade
4. duck and attack
5. duck and parry/riposte
6. attack to the back


what do you think? is this too weird?

[Prometheus]

1. jumping and attacking
2. jumping parry/riposte
3. jumping and taking the blade

Excepting special situations, it is usually a poor tacical decision to jump with an action. (I presume by jumping you mean vertical and not a ballistic lunge or flunge) I have seen many jump actions, but most of them would be classifyed as despiration moves or showboating. Going airborne lets your opponent know exactly where you are going.

4. duck and attack
5. duck and parry/riposte

Again excepting special situations, it is usually a poor tactical decission to duck with an action. There are some very skilled fencers who contort themselves is odd ways to great success with infighting, Bau comes to mind. But a duck, in foil usually about equal to putting a flick me really hard sign on your mask in bright neon.

6. attack to the back

Attacking to the back is a common componenet of advanced foil lessons. Attacking to the back in eppe is a far more tricks propositon, that usually is in the form of a remise during a fleche. I have never seen a successful attack to the back in saber... I havent watched a whole lot of saber so no promices on that one.

I guess the theme of my reply is that essentially all of these are things that may or may not be incorporated into lessons for advanced fencers. Those are fencers with enough training to realize the tactical risk of the actions and the physical dexterity to use them to an advantage. All of these actions are extreemly distance sensitive and can leave you extreemly flat footed if they fail. Before worrying about these things it is far more important to hone point control, distance and endurance. Then propbably absence of blade and sencond intention. These other actions (except 6.) are usually just seasoning and dont need to be speifically trained.

[Boo Boo]

I always work on 6 (attacks and reposts to back and shoulder) in lessons. Last week, rather bizarrely, I also did some work on jumping with the repost in prime for a close quarters repost against left handers (left handed lesson).

Have never done ducking in any lessons and haven't done any other jumping (ballestras before attacks, yes, but not jumping) in lessons.

As posted above, jumping and ducking are not often a good choice of moves. When you jump, you have both feet in the air - so cannot change direction of speed quickly. When you duck you have basically one chance to hit your opponent, then you have had it.

I must admit, personally, that I have never been able to duck successfully: despite practicing it, I can't seem to get my knees to collapse from under me quickly (and look more like an old woman trying to crouch down on the floor... :-( ). Still, there are always other forms of body contorting counter-attacks... :-)

Boo

[counter riposte]

I might have to consult my big book of rules... but

I believe that a duck in foil is considered to be target displacement, a cardable offense

A jump, (not a ballesta) if executed to the point of falling into your opponent could be considered disorderly fencing, again cardable.

I highly recommend that you do not make this a part of your regular game. As posted earlier, a duck would leave you without a second intention attack, and excessive jumping can broadcast to your opponent and the world that you are attacking.

[oiuyt]

Uhm, SUBSTITUTION of target is cardable, displacement is not. Otherwise you'd never be allowed to retreat when your opponent attacked.

Running (or in this case jumping) into your opponent pulls in the much less subjective corps a corps card, no need to go to disorderly fencing.

Yeah, you might want to "big book of rules" there.... Preferably next time BEFORE posting.

-B :)

[135711]

okay counter, you don't want us to jump, but jump we must. i did a little jump and got one point on your friend cedric, the husband of my friend in louisiana, which made me realize that if i had had a little more boooooong to my legs, i could've got him more, i got one more with a duck, and he walked right into it, but that's because i was dead tired and it looked like i was going to pass out, he walked into it outta sympathy. the jump/duck thing is good i think for general workouts. but if i have to fence against counter i wont use them, i'll get carded. jumping seems like a threat......i don't think we want to jumping jacks on the piste, but, it worked.

[Boo Boo]

135711, if you want a good threat then try ballestras and appels (sp?). These can often break up the tempo of your footwork (making you less predictable) and sometimes make your opponent hesitate (sometimes making an opportunity to attack). Also try fleching (rather than jumping) - you hit your opponent very early and then can run past them (so if you don't hit, you can avoid being hit).

Jumps and ducks are sometimes used at very high levels. The former I have only really seen with a close-quarters reposte, the latter is done as a last minute action into a very fast attack (if it is done into a slower attack, your opponent can see you duck and change lines to still hit you - i.e. on the back).

Neither jumping (unless you force corp-a-corps in the process) or ducking (unless you substitute target in the process) are cardable offences.

It isn't wrong to practice jumps or ducks, its just getting them in the right context to make them useful for your fencing (otherwise you will look like a frog ;-)) - there are often better ways to achieve the results that you are looking for.

Boo

[135711]

i realize it boo, i appreciate your input and understand where you're coming from. it was sort of a suggestion for inclusion in training, as it is a technique that is used, not often, but in a pinch it works. i like the ballestra, but the appel is something i don't use very well, mostly it's because my front foot is a little less sturdy because i fell when i was really small and had a minor stroke [i think] and when i got up and around my foot didn't work as well, i had to compensate by doing other things.